I said SHIFT because that seemed to keep on the right side of being legal whereas JOURNEY seemed to be a bit woolly
I suppose it would take a court case to give a precise definition - ending up in EU court I suspect = very expensive
ROG:
Are these different journeys done with a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes? - if yes then it all counts as driving for the regs
ROG:
I said SHIFT because that seemed to keep on the right side of being legal whereas JOURNEY seemed to be a bit woolly
tachograph:
ROG:
Are these different journeys done with a vehicle over 3.5 tonnes? - if yes then it all counts as driving for the regsROG:
I said SHIFT because that seemed to keep on the right side of being legal whereas JOURNEY seemed to be a bit woolly
I meant using different vehicles all over 3.5 tonnes in the same shift will all count as it did not say that switching vehicles makes any difference
tachograph:
flippermaj:
I can’t find any clarification on this in the rules and regs!If you drive off road all day then the activity is out of scope.
But if you start on the highway and then go off road and stay off for the rest of the day can you still count the off road part of the day as out of scope?
If you start on the highway, go off road and then come back on the highway can you count the off road bit as out of scope?
Cheers
FlipperYou’re looking at this the wrong way, it’s not a question of what you do when you’ve been driving on public roads it’s more about whether or not the off-road driving is part of a journey that goes onto public roads.
Lets say you start work at 06:00 and move vehicles/trailers around the yard until 12:00, although you’ve moved several vehicles/trailers and done plenty of driving you haven’t been onto public roads so the work is out of scope of EU regulations (counts as other work).
At 12:00 you pick up a vehicle/trailer and drive around the yard until 12:30 loading goods from various points in the yard, you then leave the yard with the same vehicle/trailer to go to the delivery destination, this journey has gone onto public roads so all the driving, including the driving done in the yard while loading the vehicle, is in-scope of EU regulations.
In other words the driving done while loading the vehicle from 12:00 to 12:30 is classed as part of the journey even though you never drove on public roads until the vehicle was loaded at 12:30.If any part of a journey involves driving on roads open to the public the driving time is in-scope of EU regulations (unless the work or vehicle is exempt obviously).
The whole debate about off road driving comes down to the definition of “journey”, I’ve always thought of a journey as a trip from point A to point B while some people see the journey as a whole shift, I’ve always found this to be a difficult discussion to give a definitive answer to because there appears to be no official definition of a “journey” in the regulations.
However (EEC) No 3821/85 talks about more than one journey on a record sheet which to me implies that the “journey” is in fact the trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
Each crew member shall enter the following information on his record sheet:
~snip~
(d) the odometer reading:– at the start of the first journey recorded on the sheet,
– at the end of the last journey recorded on the sheet,
– in the event of a change of vehicle during a working day
(reading on the vehicle to which he was assigned and reading
on the vehicle to which he is to be assigned);For me this seems to solve the problem of defining a “journey”, whether or not it solves the problem for other people … who knows
Wildfire does say that he has spoken to VOSA and they are the ones that “said” it’s perfectly acceptable what he is doing.
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.
weeto:
Wildfire does say that he has spoken to VOSA and they are the ones that “said” it’s perfectly acceptable what he is doing.
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.
I agree but the problem with simply asking VOSA is that unless you get it in writing it’s just an opinion of a particular VOSA person.
I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with asking VOSA but personally I like to see the correct answer in the regulations, which is why for me the quote from (EEC) No 3821/85 seems to clarify that a journey is indeed a trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
So there’s no confusion, I agree completely with what wildfire has said, in fact the way I’m reading it the quote from the regulations backs up what he’s said 
edit:
weeto:
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.
No actually it’s not VOSAs definition of the regulations, the quote came from the regulations that were drawn up by the EU commission not VOSA.
My understanding of out of scope is as follows
If A-B is on road then it’s in scope.
If after this you are at B and travel to C off road that’s out of scope.
If however you are at B travel on road to C and continue off road to D that’s in scope for ALL of the journey.
HTH
Vehicle based at quarry
2 hours driving inside quarry grounds = out of scope
Drive to point A which is in private grounds and drive in those grounds then back to quarry = all in scope
another 2 hours driving inside quarry then go home = out of scope
tachograph:
weeto:
Wildfire does say that he has spoken to VOSA and they are the ones that “said” it’s perfectly acceptable what he is doing.
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.I agree but the problem with simply asking VOSA is that unless you get it in writing it’s just an opinion of a particular VOSA person.
I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with asking VOSA but personally I like to see the correct answer in the regulations, which is why for me the quote from (EEC) No 3821/85 seems to clarify that a journey is indeed a trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
So there’s no confusion, I agree completely with what wildfire has said, in fact the way I’m reading it the quote from the regulations backs up what he’s said
edit:
weeto:
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.No actually it’s not VOSAs definition of the regulations, the quote came from the regulations that were drawn up by the EU commission not VOSA.
That may be correct, but it’s VOSA’s interpretation of said regulations, that’s why there is a disclaimer on page 2!
weeto:
tachograph:
weeto:
Wildfire does say that he has spoken to VOSA and they are the ones that “said” it’s perfectly acceptable what he is doing.
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.I agree but the problem with simply asking VOSA is that unless you get it in writing it’s just an opinion of a particular VOSA person.
I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with asking VOSA but personally I like to see the correct answer in the regulations, which is why for me the quote from (EEC) No 3821/85 seems to clarify that a journey is indeed a trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
So there’s no confusion, I agree completely with what wildfire has said, in fact the way I’m reading it the quote from the regulations backs up what he’s said
edit:
weeto:
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.No actually it’s not VOSAs definition of the regulations, the quote came from the regulations that were drawn up by the EU commission not VOSA.
That may be correct, but it’s VOSA’s interpretation of said regulations, that’s why there is a disclaimer on page 2!
Absolutely correct, the disclaimer on page 2 of GV262 says “This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law ~snip~ If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1”, which is precisely what I’ve done and it seems to back up what some of us already believed regarding off road driving.
Some people in this thread, yourself included, have said that once you go onto a public road during the shift the whole shifts driving counts towards the daily driving period, I’ve posted a quote from the regulations to support what some of us believed to be the case that you can do off road driving during a shift that involves in-scope driving.
I must have quoted the regulations hundreds if not thousands of times on this board, I’m sorry but I’m confused as to why it’s now a problem
tachograph:
weeto:
tachograph:
weeto:
Wildfire does say that he has spoken to VOSA and they are the ones that “said” it’s perfectly acceptable what he is doing.
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.I agree but the problem with simply asking VOSA is that unless you get it in writing it’s just an opinion of a particular VOSA person.
I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with asking VOSA but personally I like to see the correct answer in the regulations, which is why for me the quote from (EEC) No 3821/85 seems to clarify that a journey is indeed a trip from A to B and not the entire shift.
So there’s no confusion, I agree completely with what wildfire has said, in fact the way I’m reading it the quote from the regulations backs up what he’s said
edit:
weeto:
I suppose all that needs doing, is ask VOSA what there definition of journey is, because at the end of the day, where this is printed, that’s there definition of the rules.No actually it’s not VOSAs definition of the regulations, the quote came from the regulations that were drawn up by the EU commission not VOSA.
That may be correct, but it’s VOSA’s interpretation of said regulations, that’s why there is a disclaimer on page 2!
Absolutely correct, the disclaimer on page 2 of GV262 says “This publication gives general guidance only and should not be regarded as a complete or authoritative statement of the law ~snip~ If you wish to check the legal position, you should refer to the main legislation listed in Annex 1”, which is precisely what I’ve done and it seems to back up what some of us already believed regarding off road driving.
Some people in this thread, yourself included, have said that once you go onto a public road during the shift the whole shifts driving counts towards the daily driving period, I’ve posted a quote from the regulations to support what some of us believed to be the case that you can do off road driving during a shift that involves in-scope driving.
I must have quoted the regulations hundreds if not thousands of times on this board, I’m sorry but I’m confused as to why it’s now a problem
Sorry, when the regs were changed, which before they were were, any off road driving was out of scope regardless to how it was done, end of, I was away from driving when it was changed, then when I came back, I was told you can’t do any out of scope driving mid shift end of, that’s why I was a bit confused when wildfire said you can…
So the definitive answer is you still can? Depending on how it’s done.
weeto:
Sorry, when the regs were changed, which before they were were, any off road driving was out of scope regardless to how it was done, end of, I was away from driving when it was changed, then when I came back, I was told you can’t do any out of scope driving mid shift end of, that’s why I was a bit confused when wildfire said you can…
So the definitive answer is you still can? Depending on how it’s done.
No worries mate
Yes there is still such a thing as off road driving as long as it’s not part of a journey that goes onto public roads, well that’s how I see it anyway, and from what wildfire has said it appears that’s the way VOSA see it to 
So as an example, I go to trinity terminal at Felixstowe Dock to drop a container off then go to landgaurd terminal to pick my next one up, could I use out of scope between the container being lifted off and until the next one is put on?
I know on the old rules, the whole time spent on the dock could have been spent on out of scope.
weeto:
So as an example, I go to trinity terminal at Felixstowe Dock to drop a container off then go to landgaurd terminal to pick my next one up, could I use out of scope between the container being lifted off and until the next one is put on?
no - the driving for the journey is for everything from and back to base whether it be driving on public or private grounds
ROG:
weeto:
So as an example, I go to trinity terminal at Felixstowe Dock to drop a container off then go to landgaurd terminal to pick my next one up, could I use out of scope between the container being lifted off and until the next one is put on?no - the driving for the journey is for everything from and back to base whether it be driving on public or private grounds
But it’s 3 separate journies with the middle one being off road wouldn’t it? which would mean that one would be out of scope.
I thought we established what would count as out of scope earlier in the post?
weeto:
ROG:
weeto:
So as an example, I go to trinity terminal at Felixstowe Dock to drop a container off then go to landgaurd terminal to pick my next one up, could I use out of scope between the container being lifted off and until the next one is put on?no - the driving for the journey is for everything from and back to base whether it be driving on public or private grounds
But it’s 3 separate journies with the middle one being off road wouldn’t it? which would mean that one would be out of scope.
I thought we established what would count as out of scope earlier in the post?
I agree with ROG that’s part of the same journey not a separate journey.
If I set out in the morning with 5 drops and a return load from a different place I’m not doing 6 journeys I’m doing one journey, in your scenario the fact that you’re changing containers doesn’t make it a new journey, it’s all part of the same journey.
When your boss tells you where you’re going he doesn’t say you’ve got a trip to point A then a trip to point B then another trip to point C if you’re actually going from A to B to C, because it’s all part of the same trip/journey.