Franglais:
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As another aside nitrogen filled tyres? As a small advantage in a racing team, that’s one thing. But when the air around us is mostly nitrogen anyway how much difference does it make in the real everyday world I wonder? Has someone read about F1 teams and thought “if it works for them etc” or have they done any comparative testing and cost analysis?
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I think the main reason for using 100% nitrogen is that the tyres hold their pressure for longer as nitrogen leaks (migrates I think they call it) out through the rubber more slowly than oxygen does because a nitrogen molecule is bigger or something. It is also more stable in terms of not expanding / contracting so much with temperature so causing less of a pressure change. Presumably that’s the main reason racing people use it as I cannot see there is much time for “migration” in a F1 race [emoji38]
Yep, in a race setup the difference between 80% nitrogen and 100% nitrogen may count. Does it in the real world of trucks I wonder?
Franglais:
.
As another aside nitrogen filled tyres? As a small advantage in a racing team, that’s one thing. But when the air around us is mostly nitrogen anyway how much difference does it make in the real everyday world I wonder? Has someone read about F1 teams and thought “if it works for them etc” or have they done any comparative testing and cost analysis?
.
I think the main reason for using 100% nitrogen is that the tyres hold their pressure for longer as nitrogen leaks (migrates I think they call it) out through the rubber more slowly than oxygen does because a nitrogen molecule is bigger or something. It is also more stable in terms of not expanding / contracting so much with temperature so causing less of a pressure change. Presumably that’s the main reason racing people use it as I cannot see there is much time for “migration” in a F1 race [emoji38]
Yep, in a race setup the difference between 80% nitrogen and 100% nitrogen may count. Does it in the real world of trucks I wonder?
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Only for stopping the leakage rate I would say, so that you have to top the pressures up less often. The machines for doing it are not that expensive (you don’t have to have liquid nitrogen delivered or anything the machine takes the oxygen out somehow, before the compressor I think. Lots of tyre places have them.
Franglais:
.
As another aside nitrogen filled tyres? As a small advantage in a racing team, that’s one thing. But when the air around us is mostly nitrogen anyway how much difference does it make in the real everyday world I wonder? Has someone read about F1 teams and thought “if it works for them etc” or have they done any comparative testing and cost analysis?
.
I think the main reason for using 100% nitrogen is that the tyres hold their pressure for longer as nitrogen leaks (migrates I think they call it) out through the rubber more slowly than oxygen does because a nitrogen molecule is bigger or something. It is also more stable in terms of not expanding / contracting so much with temperature so causing less of a pressure change. Presumably that’s the main reason racing people use it as I cannot see there is much time for “migration” in a F1 race [emoji38]
Yep, in a race setup the difference between 80% nitrogen and 100% nitrogen may count. Does it in the real world of trucks I wonder?
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Only for stopping the leakage rate I would say, so that you have to top the pressures up less often. The machines for doing it are not that expensive (you don’t have to have liquid nitrogen delivered or anything the machine takes the oxygen out somehow, before the compressor I think. Lots of tyre places have them.
Using words like “migration” may attract a bit of attention!
But I’ve never noticed a real problem with tyres loosing pressure unless they had a leak. What are the salesmen saying fill with nitrogen and never check pressure again? I check my cars and bikes by attaching the flexible lead and gauge from my wheeled compressor, quick n easy.
Isn’t non nitrogen gaseous migration a non problem??
Franglais:
Using words like “migration” may attract a bit of attention!
But I’ve never noticed a real problem with tyres loosing pressure unless they had a leak. What are the salesmen saying fill with nitrogen and never check pressure again? I check my cars and bikes by attaching the flexible lead and gauge from my wheeled compressor, quick n easy.
Isn’t non nitrogen gaseous migration a non problem??
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Nitrogen has larger molecules which doesn’t stop migration but slows the process down, a tyre will still go flat over time.
It’s been used in Aircraft and F1 tyres for year, because unlike air which is a combination of gases and is normally used, nitrogen is a dry gas and contains no moisture, in aircraft moisture could freeze and cause the tyres to blow as the ice causes abrasion on the side walls, in F1 the friction of moisture could cause the tyre to overheat.
I was told the reason we had our units tyres inflated with nitrogen was to reduce migration which would in effect give you a fully inflated tyre, on a cold morning a tyre that is filled with air would need the friction of the road to warm and expand the air inside, which in turn reduces the drag and increases motion.
I’m no technician just a driver, and he was probably a good salesman as we had a fleet of 10 done and a few other firms had theirs done too.
Franglais:
Using words like “migration” may attract a bit of attention!
But I’ve never noticed a real problem with tyres loosing pressure unless they had a leak. What are the salesmen saying fill with nitrogen and never check pressure again? I check my cars and bikes by attaching the flexible lead and gauge from my wheeled compressor, quick n easy.
Isn’t non nitrogen gaseous migration a non problem??
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Nitrogen has larger molecules which doesn’t stop migration but slows the process down, a tyre will still go flat over time.
It’s been used in Aircraft and F1 tyres for year, because unlike air which is a combination of gases and is normally used, nitrogen is a dry gas and contains no moisture, in aircraft moisture could freeze and cause the tyres to blow as the ice causes abrasion on the side walls, in F1 the friction of moisture could cause the tyre to overheat.
I was told the reason we had our units tyres inflated with nitrogen was to reduce migration which would in effect give you a fully inflated tyre, on a cold morning a tyre that is filled with air would need the friction of the road to warm and expand the air inside, which in turn reduces the drag and increases motion.
I’m no technician just a driver, and he was probably a good salesman as we had a fleet of 10 done and a few other firms had theirs done too.
Since air is 80% nitrogen anyway. . . And since moisture is partially removed in a compressor(hence they need to be drained or have driers fitted) I’d think your boss encountered a good salesman. Has he compared before/after or non/equipped vehicles?
Franglais:
Using words like “migration” may attract a bit of attention!
But I’ve never noticed a real problem with tyres loosing pressure unless they had a leak. What are the salesmen saying fill with nitrogen and never check pressure again? I check my cars and bikes by attaching the flexible lead and gauge from my wheeled compressor, quick n easy.
Isn’t non nitrogen gaseous migration a non problem??
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Nitrogen has larger molecules which doesn’t stop migration but slows the process down, a tyre will still go flat over time.
It’s been used in Aircraft and F1 tyres for year, because unlike air which is a combination of gases and is normally used, nitrogen is a dry gas and contains no moisture, in aircraft moisture could freeze and cause the tyres to blow as the ice causes abrasion on the side walls, in F1 the friction of moisture could cause the tyre to overheat.
I was told the reason we had our units tyres inflated with nitrogen was to reduce migration which would in effect give you a fully inflated tyre, on a cold morning a tyre that is filled with air would need the friction of the road to warm and expand the air inside, which in turn reduces the drag and increases motion.
I’m no technician just a driver, and he was probably a good salesman as we had a fleet of 10 done and a few other firms had theirs done too.
Since air is 80% nitrogen anyway. . . And since moisture is partially removed in a compressor(hence they need to be drained or have driers fitted) I’d think your boss encountered a good salesman. Has he compared before/after or non/equipped vehicles?
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Like I said I’m a driver not a technician, we as drivers stopped using it because we were a European haulier and it’s not easy to come by when you’re down the road should you need it.
That looks to me like an opinion piece.
Some “sciency” facts, but no figures, no tests, to verify or refute his theories.
And two quarts of water from a tyre! He seemed to be hinting that’s from a faulty compressor?
Was it bought second hand from Jacques Cousteau??
That looks to me like an opinion piece.
Some “sciency” facts, but no figures, no tests, to verify or refute his theories.
And two quarts of water from a tyre! He seemed to be hinting that’s from a faulty compressor?
Was it bought second hand from Jacques Cousteau??
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I didn’t perform an autopsy on the article, I looked to see why
That looks to me like an opinion piece.
Some “sciency” facts, but no figures, no tests, to verify or refute his theories.
And two quarts of water from a tyre! He seemed to be hinting that’s from a faulty compressor?
Was it bought second hand from Jacques Cousteau??
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I didn’t perform an autopsy on the article, I looked to see why
I’m not having a pop at you particularly mate.
But articles that pretend to be objectives do wind me up a little.
That looks to me like an opinion piece.
Some “sciency” facts, but no figures, no tests, to verify or refute his theories.
And two quarts of water from a tyre! He seemed to be hinting that’s from a faulty compressor?
Was it bought second hand from Jacques Cousteau??
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I didn’t perform an autopsy on the article, I looked to see why
I’m not having a pop at you particularly mate.
But articles that pretend to be objectives do wind me up a little.
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That article was one of a few, I didn’t just plump for the first one, but they all see nitrogen as a winner, due to its reduced migration period ie tyres stay inflated longer thus reducing road/tyre friction and increasing momentum which in turn gives better MPG, it also reduces wear on tyre walls and increases a better wear across the tyre tread.
It’s a fact I’ll never get to the bottom of and if I did I wouldn’t understand it or got passed the point of caring
Correct tyre pressure is important for economy of both fuel and tyre life, agreed.
Pure nitrogen will migrate less th
an an 80% mix, agreed.
My question is
“Is the cost difference in filling with pure nitrogen reflected in real world savings?”.
I don’t expect you’re gonna have the answer to that yourself, but if you have seen it anywhere I’d be very interested in it.
there are many factors that will increase fuel consumption in colder weather however the biggest impact is from your tyres.
Notice when a vehicle is parked the deformity in the tyre where it contacts the road surface, now consider when the vehicle is moving that deformity is continually moving around the tyre. When materials like rubber gets cold it becomes less pliable and requires more energy to deform or bend - therefore colder tyres require more energy, lots more energy. (try handling tyres in a warm workshop then one that has been outside at -5, the difference is immense) Yes they do warm up when rolling, but that temperature is always less than on a warmer day.
toonsy:
Tyre pressures is unlikely because we have to drive over a pressure sensing plate which pings up warnings if the PSI is outside a certain tolerance. Running Scania btw. Never normally near the weight limits (It’s normally foam insulation boards) as the loads have been bulky rather than heavy.
I can’t see how a pressure sensing plate on the ground could determine tyre pressure, could you find some more about about this? I’m curious
We had a nitrogen pump at my brothers garage, it was a good selling point for the salesman and like a placebo it works for some. I understand why racing teams and aircraft use Nitrogen but don’t see any great savings on a fleet of heavies. A slow puncture is still a puncture and needs fixing. I compare it to fuel, 95 or 97 RON?
Bluey Circles:
there are many factors that will increase fuel consumption in colder weather however the biggest impact is from your tyres.
Notice when a vehicle is parked the deformity in the tyre where it contacts the road surface, now consider when the vehicle is moving that deformity is continually moving around the tyre. When materials like rubber gets cold it becomes less pliable and requires more energy to deform or bend - therefore colder tyres require more energy, lots more energy.
toonsy:
Tyre pressures is unlikely because we have to drive over a pressure sensing plate which pings up warnings if the PSI is outside a certain tolerance. Running Scania btw. Never normally near the weight limits (It’s normally foam insulation boards) as the loads have been bulky rather than heavy.
I can’t see how a pressure sensing plate on the ground could determine tyre pressure, could you find some more about about this? I’m curious
Pretty sure there is one at Keele Services for cars.
toonsy:
Tyre pressures is unlikely because we have to drive over a pressure sensing plate which pings up warnings if the PSI is outside a certain tolerance. Running Scania btw. Never normally near the weight limits (It’s normally foam insulation boards) as the loads have been bulky rather than heavy.
I can’t see how a pressure sensing plate on the ground could determine tyre pressure, could you find some more about about this? I’m curious
Pretty sure there is one at Keele Services for cars.
I have heard of bus companies using them as well.
learn something everyday, I had never heard of such a thing before, would love to know how they work, unless the expected footprint of the tyre is known I don’t get how they could calc the air pressure ?
Franglais:
Using words like “migration” may attract a bit of attention!
But I’ve never noticed a real problem with tyres loosing pressure unless they had a leak. What are the salesmen saying fill with nitrogen and never check pressure again? I check my cars and bikes by attaching the flexible lead and gauge from my wheeled compressor, quick n easy.
Isn’t non nitrogen gaseous migration a non problem??
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Nitrogen has larger molecules which doesn’t stop migration but slows the process down, a tyre will still go flat over time.
It’s been used in Aircraft and F1 tyres for year, because unlike air which is a combination of gases and is normally used, nitrogen is a dry gas and contains no moisture, in aircraft moisture could freeze and cause the tyres to blow as the ice causes abrasion on the side walls, in F1 the friction of moisture could cause the tyre to overheat.
I was told the reason we had our units tyres inflated with nitrogen was to reduce migration which would in effect give you a fully inflated tyre, on a cold morning a tyre that is filled with air would need the friction of the road to warm and expand the air inside, which in turn reduces the drag and increases motion.
I’m no technician just a driver, and he was probably a good salesman as we had a fleet of 10 done and a few other firms had theirs done too.
As stated Nitrogen is used in Motor racing because it’s dry gas, the problem with normal compressed air is it contains an unknown amount of moisture which will vary each time a tyre is fitted. The different moisture contents will change the performance of the tyre each time it’s used and engineers hate unknowns.
However I haven’t used nitrogen in race tyres for years, which is good as it was a pain and just another process to get tyres ready when in a hurry. These days the tyre manufacturer’s at most major race series now have quite impressive compressor systems and air driers, so the air is dry enough to be as predictable as nitrogen. When we did Back to Back testing it showed no difference between nitrogen and dry air.
As for nitrogen in tyres for road vehicles, I believe, as has been said it’s that nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen so it doesn’t lose pressure as quickly, but not sure if it’s really worth the money, must be far easier to check tyre pressures regularly.
Nitrogen is used in race cars as it contains hardly any water, (moisture) when a tyre is inflated with compressed air after it reaches optimum temperature, the pressure can rise by as much as 10psi, which can equate to a ride height increase of 2-3mm, also a 5psi increase on a race car can cause either understeer or oversteer, depending on the set-up put on the car, Nitrogen in a pure state remains at a constant,
The dense air theory, doesn’t hold on petrol engine, especially turbo’d units as dense air,with moisture, will increase power, as it lowers the intake charge temperature, the intercooler will be working even better, that’s why fuel use to get frozen, with liquid nitrogen, and intercoolers packed with dry ice…
cav551:
If vehicles were fitted with a proper temperature gauge which reads in degrees (like they used to be) rather than these vague ‘indicators’ that are fashionably fitted, one could notice immediately that the engine is running too cold, hence it is inefficient and using more fuel. Back in the '70s quite a few operators specified Kysor thermostatically controlled radiator shutters. CM published an article about Smith of Maddiston fitting them to ■■■■■■■ powered Guy units to improve fuel consumption. Go back far enough in time before antifreeze was in common use and you will hear stories of the radiator bottom tank freezing while the vehicle was in use.
Now that vehicles are so powerful anyway it is not so apparent that the thing pulls better uphill when it is really cold. Drive something without a turbocharger and it is noticeable.
My Ford Transit 2.5 Di (non turbo, thank you) is definitely taking (even) more time going up hills since the temperatures have dropped. Also takes longer to start when cold. Time for an oil change me thinks.
Ah the Di ■■■■■■ - an almost Gardner like rate of progress uphill - I’ve still got one too, sitting on the drive quietly disintegrating and annoying the missus, I use it as a store.
Sounds like yours has run out of puff if it’s getting worse in cold weather. Either that or the injectors are no good. They used to start well.
