I wouldn’t bank on lower maintenance with a newer lorry, these current lorries are completely over engineered with technology for technology’s sake.
Yes they are pretty miserly on fuel consumption, but again it’s a numbers game, does the extra mpg make up for the increased payment and potential loss of earnings from failed gadgetry that’s far too common with the new lorries.
I spent close to 3k last month on one of mine, this included new front tyres (Michelin of course) and most of the repairs were freaky things, like a new heater matrix (30yrs of transport and that’s the first I’ve ever had to change) contrast that to the 6k turbo the one I drive needed last week, it was covered by warranty as I bought the extended warranty that gives 5yrs or 500,000miles, I’ve still got 180,000miles and two years left to run on that, but it cost me 7k, so I’m still a grand upside-down on the deal.
Now Albion, you say it’s a gut feeling, I agree, but it’s a gut feeling because you know what makes sense (money) and what doesn’t.
newmercman:
Same here mate, as soon as I was out of nappies I was out in the lorry with my Dad. Best education you can get.
+1
Chief navigator here , learned to read from maps, how to deal with people, work ethic, saw so much from farms, docks and factories. Wouldn’t be allowed to do most of it now - I can remember watching molten steel being poured somewhere in Sheffield - can you imagine a kid getting through the gates now?
Having run trucks on contract hire and leasing both with full r & m I would never go down that route again. Whilst I had a known cost base for trucks working for a long established customer with known revenue each week, it left the business in deep trouble when that customer for whom we had provided transport for 15 years suddenly pulled the plug and put all their work with those who shall not be named on here. If the trucks had been owned, or subject to a normal finance agreement they could have been parked up or sold until new work was sourced. As it was we had the drain of set monthly payments to make with a much reduced revenue. (£1.5 million per annum)
Can I be nosy gingerfold - I take it said customer had not provided you with a contract? I presume the other haulier would not work without a contract. It is one of my bugbears that customers expect a lot of investment on either no or short term contract.
We dabbled in a couple of R&M contracts about ten years ago. Our business means that we do lower mileage than average, so we keep trucks for about 8 years. I invariably felt that the servicing level was poor on the R&M, the bare minimum and things left because it was coming out of contract in 6 months that we would have repaired. Secondly buying the same truck afterwards coupled with the R&M costs were enough to make you weep.
@Stanny 1985, a cared for older truck can look better than a neglected younger truck.
Hello Albion, no we didn’t have a written contract (and some of those are not worth the paper they are written on, to use a well known saying). About 6 months before we lost the work I had an inkling that something was in the wind, but I couldn’t convince the then owner of the business. Virtually all of this customer’s work was into London (Olympics Park construction), and other major projects in the City, so that had influenced our decision to go for new trucks because of LEZ etc. I had started to bring new niche market work into the business, but when the construction site work was lost the new work wasn’t sufficient volume to replace the former. Would we do construction work again? Never. Looking back it was hassle, hassle, hassle. Losing it probably did us a big favour, although it brought us to our knees at the time. We re-focussed, re-grouped, learned our lessons about truck acquisitions, and moved the company forward in new directions. We went from 30 trucks to 15, now we are back to 30, and that is where we hope to stay.
I’m sorry to hear of the hard times, but as you say, sometimes a good shake up can be good in the long term, even if it doesn’t feel like it at the time.
We’re smaller than you, 20 vehicles, but a mix of vans, 7.5s and artics - any company the size of yours and ours will always suffer uncertainty and some pretty bad lows. We do have a genuine contract and as you say, it can easily be broken by the customer if it suits, though it’s been held for a long time and they are mostly decent people to work for. Fortunately for us, the barriers to entry in our market are such that it’s very difficult for someone to undercut. Those who are not named, tried once and several years later we are still chuckling at the failure. Construction, never tried it, don’t intend to! Can’t remember the last time we had the ‘pleasure’ of going into London either apart from Heathrow.
For anyone starting out, if you get some good years, keep some aside for the lean years so you can ride them out, the unexpected will always blindside you.
If you study the history of road haulage then the 20 to 30 vehicle “general haulage” operators have always been the most at risk from losing work to predators. At that size these companies usually have one or two sizable customers whose work is attractive. In our case we were too comfortable with our biggest customer, even though on looking back it wasn’t as good as we thought at the time. For instance, it required 60 trailers in the system. These could stand at steel painters for 4 to 6 weeks, but they were an added cost to the business which we didn’t cover fully in the rates charged. The niche market work we now do as part of our overall business has almost replaced the former work in terms of revenue, it uses fewer tractive units, only 10 specialist trailers, cover much less mileage, and doesn’t need back loading.
gingerfold:
If you study the history of road haulage then the 20 to 30 vehicle “general haulage” operators have always been the most at risk from losing work to predators. At that size these companies usually have one or two sizable customers whose work is attractive. In our case we were too comfortable with our biggest customer, even though on looking back it wasn’t as good as we thought at the time. For instance, it required 60 trailers in the system. These could stand at steel painters for 4 to 6 weeks, but they were an added cost to the business which we didn’t cover fully in the rates charged. The niche market work we now do as part of our overall business has almost replaced the former work in terms of revenue, it uses fewer tractive units, only 10 specialist trailers, cover much less mileage, and doesn’t need back loading.
That sounds a nice deal there gingerfold. I’ve had a couple of people want to buy the company, but I’m still a glutton for punishment as I turned them down. One day it’ll all go Pete Tong, but I’ve got to the age where I feel that I’ve done my bit as a taxpayer and given my drivers a good run with steady employment and when the time comes, I can go and find something with less stress. Which is just about any job i can think of
nsmith1180:
…My thoughts were that if I owned the wagon outright I could park it if I couldn’t find good work for it rather than having to do crap work to keep the money flowing…
Good luck with your venture, I hope it works for you, BUT… the above statement suggests that you may have things a little arse about face, as others have already tried to say.
You have to have the good work FIRST! When you have the “good” work lined up and contracted /agreed, THEN you can find the right vehicle for the work that you are going to do!!
To buy a truck first and THEN find good paying work is nuts! To buy it and then take whatever you can find is a sure route to bankruptcy. Why would you want to buy a vehicle with the attitude of " I can always park it up" if you cannot find the “good” work for it?
With all due respect, that’s a massive outlay and investment on what seems to be a very fair weather attitude.
Find the work, get the contracts or at least an agreement established THEN go and buy your truck. One that is suitable and financially viable to do the work with. Good luck with what ever you do.
What you see as arse about face I see as playing it as safe as you can. An added bonus of owning outright is that it is a lot easier to stand the truck for holidays than if you have a lease. Surely all the additional payroll, liability insurance and damage risk savings would make that even more preferable.
That being said, I did say and mean that I’m being well swayed by the reliability/warranty protection of a newer machine along with better consumption and a more comfortable living environment. The arguments are beginning to stack up.
bullitt:
Good luck with your venture, I hope it works for you, BUT… the above statement suggests that you may have things a little arse about face, as others have already tried to say.
You have to have the good work FIRST! When you have the “good” work lined up and contracted /agreed, THEN you can find the right vehicle for the work that you are going to do!!
To buy a truck first and THEN find good paying work is nuts! To buy it and then take whatever you can find is a sure route to bankruptcy. Why would you want to buy a vehicle with the attitude of " I can always park it up" if you cannot find the “good” work for it?
With all due respect, that’s a massive outlay and investment on what seems to be a very fair weather attitude.
Find the work, get the contracts or at least an agreement established THEN go and buy your truck. One that is suitable and financially viable to do the work with. Good luck with what ever you do.
In an ideal world every job would be a case of a guaranteed contracted high paying customer who only wants to deal with one owner driver who’ll be given plenty of time to start up at leisure.
But then there’s the problem of the real world.In which maybe the high paying direct customer wants the job started from next week.
Or in which the contracted guaranteed high rate suddenly turns into the nightmare of getting even the previous money owed paid.Let alone the so called ‘contract’ honoured by a firm that no longer exists at least in name for whatever reason.Or puts a clause in the contract that allows for it to be terminated without notice if ‘trading conditions’ ( under cutting by competitors for example ) change.
Among numerous other scenarios that could leave the unfortunate owner driver with the headache of a lease contract that has to be maintained at ‘usual’ sub contract rates from ‘usual’ sources of work.At which point at sub £1.50 per mile rates the likely prospect of lease contract termination penalties start to appear.
Realistically the idea of running a big cost new truck,on by its nature almost too good to be true,difficult to find,unreliable big paying work,is a case of gambling on potentially putting too many very expensive eggs in too few baskets to pay for it.With the real possibility,of instead of the insurance of the relatively low cost paid for cheaper wagon,that can be parked up or offloaded and walked away from,the owner driver is left with the costs of a failed lease contract penalty charge,for a lease contract which can’t be sustained.In which even at best the fuel consumption and possible reliability advantages won’t outweigh the lease costs at common sub contract rates.
nsmith1180:
What you see as arse about face I see as playing it as safe as you can. An added bonus of owning outright is that it is a lot easier to stand the truck for holidays than if you have a lease. Surely all the additional payroll, liability insurance and damage risk savings would make that even more preferable.
That being said, I did say and mean that I’m being well swayed by the reliability/warranty protection of a newer machine along with better consumption and a more comfortable living environment. The arguments are beginning to stack up.
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If you are not making enough money to cover the payments when you park the lorry for a couple of week’s holiday, then A, you shouldn’t be going on holiday and B, you shouldn’t be an owner driver.
The statement “a more comfortable living environment” is troubling, of all the reasons to buy a lorry, that is so far down the list you would need binoculars to see it.
newmercman:
The statement “a more comfortable living environment” is troubling, of all the reasons to buy a lorry, that is so far down the list you would need binoculars to see it.
I think there are plenty of examples of new start owner drivers,rightly,preferring to go for a cheaper old Scammell Crusader for example than an expensive newer F12. Although old US based motors seem to be able to do the best combination of durable guvnor’s motor and civilised to live with at the same time.
newmercman:
I don’t know if anyone’s told you Carryfast, but it’s 2016…
The point is that means trying to deal with the catch 22 of trying to run an expensive to buy/maintain/over complicated/high tech/high depreciation truck in a trading environment of 60p per mile fuel costs and less than £1.50 per mile rates.
NMM:
The statement “a more comfortable living environment” is troubling, of all the reasons to buy a lorry, that is so far down the list you would need binoculars to see it.
As more comfortable living environment is down the order. If it was drastically more cost effective to pitch a tent in a lay by at night then I would but if point a, point b and point c all point to a new truck on lease, then I’m going to look forward to benefitting from point x too. If the major points are considered and a brand new T is equal on cost over lifetime to an older Premium it is no longer a business decision and personal taste is the only way to make the decision.
I see all sides of the argument I think a lot of it comes down to personal choice as the for and against argument is relatively even. I d personally go for the lease option not new I d lease second hand still with the service and maintenance packages but that way I would ensure good clean kit good fuel economy and a smart looking outfit. I would be covered by lease charges due to being a Ltd company and obviously not signing any personal guarantee
, learned to read from maps, how to deal with people, work ethic, saw so much from farms, docks and factories. Wouldn’t be allowed to do most of it now - I can remember watching molten steel being poured somewhere in Sheffield - can you imagine a kid getting through the gates now?
