coomsey:
Rates went down, the return load phenomenon started, the extra productivity only benefitted the user of transport, not the provider.
Yes N there were many factors that got transport industry where it is today. But wouldn,t it be amazing,to me at least, if the scrapping of licencing was the root cause of the demise of lorry manufacturing in Britain. Some of you guys with such a good knowledge of the industry would be able to sort it. Paul
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Firstly it seems obvious that restricting entry into the industry would probably remove employment opportunities massively and probably just create the same race to the bottom but just among fewer players.
As for the demise of the Brit truck industry you’ll find that discussion on numerous topics heatedly debated.Varying from unjustly blaming it on a supposed careless striking militant workforce.
To my own view that it was robbed and slaughtered by a combination of government anti road transport legislation which at worse artificially reduced the truck market growth to less than it could have been and at best just gave the foreigners a head start.Bankers starving it of investment funds while investing in the foreign competition and possibly badge snobbery among the domestic customer base who often preferred to have the Volvo or Scania etc badge on the front than Foden/ERF/Bedford/Scammell.
yes C there has been much debate on the loss of lorry industry, read most agreed with some not others n some went over my head. Tracing it back to cause is almost certainly going to be an impossible task. To my mind the culprit, if you go back to it,s logical conclusion, must be the man who invented the wheel, who also paradoxically was the same fella who set off the ■■■■■■■■■■ of foreigners wagons here. Enough of my silliness.
Keeping it within MPG, is there a plausible link between collapse of the industry n mpg? Paul
When I was at Turners (Soham) Ltd. we introduced driver training for fuel economy. Thinking back it would have been in about the year 2002 when all the fleet had manual gearboxes. The savings were immediately apparent and the chosen driver trainer saved his wages in the first week. Thereafter everything we saved in fuel usage went straight onto the bottom line. It’s no exaggeration to state that the savings made were startling. The majority of the drivers bought into the idea, even those who had been driving over 30 years. Even now with today’s automatic transmissions and engine management software driver training for fuel economy still pays dividends.
gingerfold:
When I was at Turners (Soham) Ltd. we introduced driver training for fuel economy. Thinking back it would have been in about the year 2002 when all the fleet had manual gearboxes. The savings were immediately apparent and the chosen driver trainer saved his wages in the first week. Thereafter everything we saved in fuel usage went straight onto the bottom line. It’s no exaggeration to state that the savings made were startling. The majority of the drivers bought into the idea, even those who had been driving over 30 years. Even now with today’s automatic transmissions and engine management software driver training for fuel economy still pays dividends.
Sure to be so G n I bet without any effect on journey times.I don,t know but fuel must be a fairly high running cost. I asked earlier if it could make or break a firm, no answer yet, Paul
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The cost of fuel on it own will not put a firm out of business, but it can certainly be a contributory factor. Since January last year to now the cost of a litre of diesel has risen by 15 pence (or £0.68 per gallon). It has put £2,400 per week on our fuel bill for a 30 truck business, so we have to look at ways of clawing that back, which is what I am constantly doing. I have just done an exercise analysing every job we do and if it is economic to do it.
No, past experience of fuel price escalators has caused them to not be the answer. An escalator can go up and down, so if fuel prices fall below a datum level then you have to reduce customer rates. I would much rather talk to customers directly and try and negotiate a rate increase, easier said than done I know, but we sell our services on the basis of premium levels of customer service.
gingerfold:
The cost of fuel on it own will not put a firm out of business, but it can certainly be a contributory factor. Since January last year to now the cost of a litre of diesel has risen by 15 pence (or £0.68 per gallon). It has put £2,400 per week on our fuel bill for a 30 truck business, so we have to look at ways of clawing that back, which is what I am constantly doing. I have just done an exercise analysing every job we do and if it is economic to do it.
Wow G thats a lot of money a year ! A few % saving would be well worth the exercise. So buying 30 motors with say 2 mpg higher consumption would have a massive cost of the bottom line.Does it give you headache trying to sort best motor to buy ?
N just to put my mind right would you buy new motors on past experience, on local/Peers recomendation or trade/expert advise ? Hope I,m not taking too much of your cost analysis time. Paul
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
We passed the trade off between fuel saving and road safety some time ago.
gingerfold:
The cost of fuel on it own will not put a firm out of business, but it can certainly be a contributory factor. Since January last year to now the cost of a litre of diesel has risen by 15 pence (or £0.68 per gallon). It has put £2,400 per week on our fuel bill for a 30 truck business, so we have to look at ways of clawing that back, which is what I am constantly doing. I have just done an exercise analysing every job we do and if it is economic to do it.
Wow G thats a lot of money a year ! A few % saving would be well worth the exercise. So buying 30 motors with say 2 mpg higher consumption would have a massive cost of the bottom line.Does it give you headache trying to sort best motor to buy ?
N just to put my mind right would you buy new motors on past experience, on local/Peers recomendation or trade/expert advise ? Hope I,m not taking too much of your cost analysis time. Paul
Fuel consumption is certainly very high up the list of considerations when buying a new truck. But the initial cost of the truck is a factor, also support from the dealer, R & M package if you want it, servicing costs, cost of spares, whole life cost of the truck (5 or 7 years life etc), driver acceptability, residual selling price, etc etc. and the type of work it will be doing.
I was perusing the CM archive yesterday and re-read the article from the early 70’s where Tilcon (my old company) were asked about maintenance and running costs etc. Most of the fleet was Foden S39 eight leggers. I THINK that the interview was with the Yorkshire area TM as it stated that only the central (our area) trucks did big distances and covered around 1000 mile weekly, the fuel worked out at around 8mpg average on a mostly Gardner powered fleet. Maintenance was different to our area though, trucks only serviced on mileage whereas ours were done monthly regardless of distance covered? Vehicles were sold on at six year intervals to save replacing the body, I always wondered why that timescale was chosen and after 40+ years I now know!
Having no experience what so ever about running motors, I just drove em, I,m now beginning to get the drift. My God you,ve got to have your wits about you if you want to survive let alone make a profit. Big fleet or OD same rules apply ! ?
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The idea of using less gears to supposedly ‘save’ fuel is as bad as their ideas that engine braking costs fuel. When it’s actually all about maintaining a strict short shifting on the up shifts and not downshifting too early,regime.IE by definition using ‘less’ gears means defeating the object of 12 and 13 speed transmissions because it means running it higher up the rev range on the upshifts and downshifting too late as there is also a point where letting it lug becomes counterproductive.
coomsey:
Having no experience what so ever about running motors, I just drove em, I,m now beginning to get the drift. My God you,ve got to have your wits about you if you want to survive let alone make a profit. Big fleet or OD same rules apply ! ?
When Tilcon decide to start selling off their own transport we drivers, in the Midlands area at least, were given the chance to buy a lorry (tippers only though) and set up on their own. They could chose any of the fleet, not neccessarily the one they drove, and several lads at Ballidon, Kevin and Mancetter quarries did exactly that. Some bought them through their own finance so they could operate wherever they liked and others went through a company scheme (I think?) and worked for Tilcon. Our store manager actually bought one which was surprising at the time, he had two trucks at one stage and still runs one of them. I thought about it, briefly, I had been a fitter and my wife was a bookkeeper but I had nowhere to keep it apart from at the quarry, plus I liked to get away in our caravan at weekends and not spend time laying under a Foden so I declined. Sometimes I reflect on what might have been but I still think I did the right thing for me, but I did admire those who took up the offer!
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The idea of using less gears to supposedly ‘save’ fuel is as bad as their ideas that engine braking costs fuel. When it’s actually all about maintaining a strict short shifting on the up shifts and not downshifting too early,regime.IE by definition using ‘less’ gears means defeating the object of 12 and 13 speed transmissions because it means running it higher up the rev range on the upshifts and downshifting too late as there is also a point where letting it lug becomes counterproductive.
Mostly used all gears to go n slow, not so much empty, n still do in my car right or wrong.
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The idea of using less gears to supposedly ‘save’ fuel is as bad as their ideas that engine braking costs fuel. When it’s actually all about maintaining a strict short shifting on the up shifts and not downshifting too early,regime.IE by definition using ‘less’ gears means defeating the object of 12 and 13 speed transmissions because it means running it higher up the rev range on the upshifts and downshifting too late as there is also a point where letting it lug becomes counterproductive.
Mostly used all gears to go n slow, not so much empty, n still do in my car right or wrong.
So do I, Coomsey ! As far as I’m concerned being always in the right gear at the right time has bugger all to do with economy and everything to do with safety and who would put profit before safety? Robert
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The idea of using less gears to supposedly ‘save’ fuel is as bad as their ideas that engine braking costs fuel. When it’s actually all about maintaining a strict short shifting on the up shifts and not downshifting too early,regime.IE by definition using ‘less’ gears means defeating the object of 12 and 13 speed transmissions because it means running it higher up the rev range on the upshifts and downshifting too late as there is also a point where letting it lug becomes counterproductive.
Mostly used all gears to go n slow, not so much empty, n still do in my car right or wrong.
So do I, Coomsey ! As far as I’m concerned being always in the right gear at the right time has bugger all to do with economy and everything to do with safety and who would put profit before safety? Robert
R thats a topic all on its own and a long one I bet
Muckaway:
Did anyone here do the SAFED course? Your company got a grant for someone to take you around a set course, count your gearchanges and then take you back to the office. There you got criticised typically for using your gears to slow down and letting the engine rev in low gear for maximum engine braking (I know ). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
Anyway, I finished top and got sod all extra in wage packet.
The idea of using less gears to supposedly ‘save’ fuel is as bad as their ideas that engine braking costs fuel. When it’s actually all about maintaining a strict short shifting on the up shifts and not downshifting too early,regime.IE by definition using ‘less’ gears means defeating the object of 12 and 13 speed transmissions because it means running it higher up the rev range on the upshifts and downshifting too late as there is also a point where letting it lug becomes counterproductive.
Mostly used all gears to go n slow, not so much empty, n still do in my car right or wrong.
So do I, Coomsey ! As far as I’m concerned being always in the right gear at the right time has bugger all to do with economy and everything to do with safety and who would put profit before safety? Robert
+1
The problem in this case is that we’re dealing with a bunch of ignorant Roadcraft admiration society jobsworths.Who think that it’s more economical to turn a 12/13 speed box back into a obsolete DB type 6 speed by hanging on to a gear up to peak power then up shifting it back to below peak torque and cooking the brakes because they think that a truck is using peak power’s worth of fuel when it’s actually idling on the over run.
). You were told to skip lots more gears (worked in a Cat powered Foden but the Volvo FE drivers struggled) and use the brakes more rather than gear shifts.
and got sod all extra in wage packet. 
! As far as I’m concerned being always in the right gear at the right time has bugger all to do with economy and everything to do with safety and who would put profit before safety? 