Long duty and EU regs

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

So I’ve got a pair of long duties coming up mid week and I thought I’d ask about this here.

1130 - Start Work
1300 - Collection Bham
1600 - Arrive site in London (7 hours wait, mostly POA)
2300 - Depart site in London
0200 - Arrive Bham for drop
0300 - Return to depot / Finish (15.5 hours duty, 6 hours POA, 1 hour break, 4.5hrs + 4hrs driving periods)

–9 hour break–

1200 - 2nd Duty Start
1330 - Collection Bham
1630 - Arrive site London (6.5 hours wait, mostly POA)
2300 - Depart site in London
0200 - Arrive Bham for drop
0300 - Return to depot / Finish. (15 hours duty, 5.5 hours POA, 1 hour break, 4.5hrs + 4 hrs driving period)

Now. Even though it is night time working, if I set the tacho to POA for most of my waiting time I will be good enough for hours. Is this good enough to keep within the regulations?

Likewise, a 9 hour break at where I have said. I live half an hour from the depot and my waiting time in London would include some time when I could rest even though there isn’t a bunk fitted (not legally, although I can sleep on the back seat which is long enough :laughing: :laughing: ) so couldn’t really use the ‘split rest’ thing can I.

POA is waiting time and not part of working time. I am only travelling within the UK so it is just EU rules being used.

Is what I have stated legal / permissible? It is in a non regular service coach for a 2 day event and having looked at the regulations they look similar enough to the LGV ones.

2

www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/d … hrules.pdf

They are similar, so similar in fact that your first day would be illegal because you are not getting a rest period in a 24 hour period.

If you take a second man, you could utilise the double manning rule.

A judgment by the European Court of Justice dated 9 November 1995 provides a useful guide to
how this provision should be interpreted. It can apply only in cases where it unexpectedly becomes
impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words,
planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs,
it is for the driver to decide whether it is necessary to depart from the rules. In doing so, a driver will
have to take into account the need to ensure road safety in the process and any instruction that may
be given by an enforcement officer (e.g. when under police ■■■■■■).

3

Wheel Nut:
Drivers hours & Tachograph Rules

They are similar, so similar in fact that your first day would be illegal because you are not getting a rest period in a 24 hour period.

I’m getting a 9 hour break between 0300 and 1200 noon? Does that not count. 9 hours is the minimum amount of break. The duty before the first one I have listed may be nothing at all but it also may be something finishing at 1800 the day before, so I would get 17 hours break from my previous duty, 9 during the event and the day after the 2nd long one I might not even work thus getting the full break there as well.

4

Saratoga:
So I’ve got a pair of long duties coming up mid week and I thought I’d ask about this here.

1130 - Start Work
1300 - Collection Bham
1600 - Arrive site in London (7 hours wait, mostly POA)
2300 - Depart site in London
0200 - Arrive Bham for drop
0300 - Return to depot / Finish (15.5 hours duty, 6 hours POA, 1 hour break, 4.5hrs + 4hrs driving periods)

–9 hour break–

1200 - 2nd Duty Start
1330 - Collection Bham
1630 - Arrive site London (6.5 hours wait, mostly POA)
2300 - Depart site in London
0200 - Arrive Bham for drop
0300 - Return to depot / Finish. (15 hours duty, 5.5 hours POA, 1 hour break, 4.5hrs + 4 hrs driving period)

Now. Even though it is night time working, if I set the tacho to POA for most of my waiting time I will be good enough for hours. Is this good enough to keep within the regulations?

Likewise, a 9 hour break at where I have said. I live half an hour from the depot and my waiting time in London would include some time when I could rest even though there isn’t a bunk fitted (not legally, although I can sleep on the back seat which is long enough :laughing: :laughing: ) so couldn’t really use the ‘split rest’ thing can I.

POA is waiting time and not part of working time. I am only travelling within the UK so it is just EU rules being used.

Is what I have stated legal / permissible? It is in a non regular service coach for a 2 day event and having looked at the regulations they look similar enough to the LGV ones.

No it’s not legal and will likely get you an infringement from your company and a FP from VOSA if you get checked.

The daily rest requirements for passenger vehicles is the same a for goods vehicles therefore you need at least 9 hours daily rest.

The first day you start at 11:30 and finish at 03:00 a total spread-over of 15.5 hours, you cannot do 15.5 hours and still fit a 9 hour daily rest period into the 24 hour period from the start of shift.

As for setting the tachograph to POA to keep your working time down that’s perfectly legal as long as you know how long you will be waiting.

As for having a split daily rest I’m not sure to be honest, the regulations require you to have suitable sleeping facilities if you have a daily rest in the vehicle but I’m not sure that a back seat would be regarded as a suitable sleeping facility, you can ask VOSA about that whilst they’re writing a ticket for the first offence (insufficient daily rest) :stuck_out_tongue: :laughing:

In any case you could put the tachograph on rest rather than POA if you wanted to, you can use the rest mode even if it’s not part of a daily rest period.

5

Saratoga:

Wheel Nut:
Drivers hours & Tachograph Rules

They are similar, so similar in fact that your first day would be illegal because you are not getting a rest period in a 24 hour period.

I’m getting a 9 hour break between 0300 and 1200 noon? Does that not count. 9 hours is the minimum amount of break. The duty before the first one I have listed may be nothing at all but it also may be something finishing at 1800 the day before, so I would get 17 hours break from my previous duty, 9 during the event and the day after the 2nd long one I might not even work thus getting the full break there as well.

What daily rest you get from a previous shift is not relevant, sorry :wink:

The daily rest period must be completed within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift, you start at 11:30 so must have completed at least a reduced daily rest period no later than 11:30 the following day, if you’re having a reduced daily rest period of 9 hours it must start no later than 02:30 which is 15 hours from the start of shift at 11:30.

6

Right, OK. Thanks for that. It will be something to print and refer to when I’m speaking to the bosses on Monday. So if I have a 9 hour break after 15 hour duty, is that permissible?

7

Saratoga:
Likewise, a 9 hour break at where I have said. I live half an hour from the depot and my waiting time in London would include some time when I could rest even though there isn’t a bunk fitted (not legally, although I can sleep on the back seat which is long enough :laughing: :laughing: ) so couldn’t really use the ‘split rest’ thing can I.

You can use the split rest option. A bunk is only a requirement of interrupted rest when using a ferry or when taking your rest in a vehicle. Of course you aren’t going to take that long period while waiting in London in the vehicle are you? You are going to go for a walk, a meal and a coffee. Sorted. :wink:

Just start 30 minutes later on the first day and you will be legal. It must be possible because that is the time you are planning to start on day two with the same run.

8

Saratoga:
Right, OK. Thanks for that. It will be something to print and refer to when I’m speaking to the bosses on Monday. So if I have a 9 hour break after 15 hour duty, is that permissible?

Yes 15+9 = 24

You need to rearrange you schedule, but the boss should already know that

9

Saratoga:
So if I have a 9 hour break after 15 hour duty, is that permissible?

Yep, that’s fine. But make sure it is no more than 15 hours duty, 15 hours and 1 minute duty only leaves 8 hours and 59 minutes in the 24-hour period and will be an infringement.

10

Saratoga:
So if I have a 9 hour break after 15 hour duty, is that permissible?

As long as you have a reduced daily rest left you’ll be fine with that :wink:

It could be that you could use the split daily rest regulation if you don’t have a reduced daily rest left (3 reduced daily rest periods between weekly rest periods), I’ve no idea if the back seat of a coach would be regarded as a suitable sleeping facility.

Personally I’d have no problem with it but I’m not VOSA so … :wink:

11

tachograph:

Saratoga:
So if I have a 9 hour break after 15 hour duty, is that permissible?

As long as you have a reduced daily rest left you’ll be fine with that :wink:

It could be that you could use the split daily rest regulation if you don’t have a reduced daily rest left (3 reduced daily rest periods between weekly rest periods), I’ve no idea if the back seat of a coach would be regarded as a suitable sleeping facility.

Personally I’d have no problem with it but I’m not VOSA so … :wink:

But if he doesn’t spend the time ‘in the vehicle’ then the bunk doesn’t matter. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

Another daft one from the regs this.

The back seat might not be regarded as suitable so it would not be allowed to count the period as rest if he spent it in the vehicle. :imp:

He could leave the vehicle and sleep on a bench or the grass in a park and that would not be an infringement. :open_mouth: :unamused: :stuck_out_tongue:

12

I was planning shorter time on the 2nd day as I’d know the way to the even and the parking problems when I got there :astonished: Although finding somewhere to hide a 40ft coach without parking restriction in the middle of London for 6 hours is going to interesting as I may not be able to park onsite at the event…

The journey back should be quieter and with less traffic due to it being night as well. But thanks to your help and advice I shall be able to take something to speak to the bosses about to get things working :wink:

13

Saratoga:
I was planning shorter time on the 2nd day as I’d know the way to the even and the parking problems when I got there :astonished:

Google Street View. You can see all the potential problems and ‘drive’ the route into the venue from the comfort of your chair and that will save you the 30 minutes you need to be legal on day one.

Sorted, next please. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

14

Thank you so much for that thoughtful insight… : :unamused: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :confused:

15

Saratoga:
Thank you so much for that thoughtful insight… : :unamused: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :confused:

Try it, it works. I use it a lot.

16

Saratoga:
Thank you so much for that thoughtful insight… : :unamused: :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :confused:

I imagine that is the best advice you have had so far, unless you want to make yourself look a plank in front of 52 back seat drivers :stuck_out_tongue:

17

No, I’ve not managed that yet. I do a fair bit of prep for such things with coaches and stuff, including the routes and parking places. I do use GE and SV quite often too myself but that particular event is somewhere even the Google Car has not gone…

But nice try :wink: