LHD Seddon-Atkinson 400s

[robert1952]

There has been a fair bit of discussion again lately, about the demise of the British truck industry. In among all the comments on various threads, I notice that ‘Carryfast’ quite often cites this model (ie the LHD ■■■■■■■ 14-litre ‘International’ version) as an example of how well British manufacturers could have competed with the foreign opposition in the '70s - along, of course with the ERF ‘European’. Of course you can add the Leyland Marathon 2, the Ford Transcontinental, the B-series ERF and the Bedford TM to that list. This prompted me to revisit this thread to have another look at the SA400.

‘Carryfast’ made some interesting observations, among which were that the cab was very good for it’s day and certainly up there with the competition. He also observed that the model developed by starting with the excellent ■■■■■■■ 14-litre NTC 335 with a and progressing to the excellent and more frugal 14-litre E290. Both had 9-speed Fullers (my preference) but I’ve no doubt that 13-speed alternatives could be found (CF’s preference). The cab was more modern than the ERF ‘European’ and it would have seen the model into the '80s where it would have morphed into the much more sophisticated SA 401 in full sleeper-cab LHD ‘International’ form. But it didn’t because SA didn’t appear to know what to do with this potential winner. With good marketing and proper support on the road, this lorry had the potential to spearhead Britain’s TIR-machine and seriously challenge the opposition. It didn’t. What a wasted opportunity! Robert

[carryfast]

robert1952:
SA didn’t appear to know what to do with this potential winner. With good marketing and proper support on the road, this lorry had the potential to spearhead Britain’s TIR-machine and seriously challenge the opposition. It didn’t. What a wasted opportunity! Robert

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+1

[nazmi_ozcan]

As far as I remeber number plates were…RMH143R-RMH144R-Pmu371R- Pmu510+511+512+513 R…Yyw647T…Vmg385s+vmg386S…

robert1952:
Magnificent! Robert

0

[robert1952]

Nazmi Ozcan:
As far as I remeber number plates were…RMH143R-RMH144R-Pmu371R- Pmu510+511+512+513 R…Yyw647T…Vmg385s+vmg386S…

robert1952:
Magnificent! Robert

0

That’s really useful information, Nazmi! I’ve rewritten them in list form (see below). I didn’t know OHS had as many as ten of them. I don’t think there were that many LHD SA400s built anyway, so we have a good starting place for a register. Perhaps I should start a bit of a project on these like I did for the ERF ‘European’!

RMH 143R
RMH 144R
PMU 371R
PMU 510R
PMU 511R
PMU 512R
PMU 513R
VMG 385S
VMG 386S
YYW 647T

PS @ Nazmi: I’ve altered XYW 647T to YYW 647T, as the pictures of it on this thread show it to be YYW - unless of course both existed!

Cheers, Robert

[robert1952]

In addition to those ten contributed by Nazmi, I’ve looked at the other pictures and come up with about nine more (that were not OHS units), as follows:

RMH 143R
RMH 144R
PMU 371R
PMU 510R
PMU 511R
PMU 512R
PMU 513R
VMG 385S
VMG 386S
YYW 647T (all OHS units)

UND 493S (SA demo unit used on Euro Test)
UNG 570S (BRS unit)
ZM-6037 (Greek unit)
PX-2491 (Greek rigid eight)
PNN-6153 (Greek rigid eight)
? (Greek rigid eight - brown)
? (SA demo unit in publicity brochure)
? (Prototype ‘International’ unit)
? (US demo unit)

TOTAL = 19

Robert

[zb_anorak]

robert1952:
In addition to those ten contributed by Nazmi, I’ve looked at the other pictures and come up with about nine more (that were not OHS units), as follows:

RMH 143R
RMH 144R
PMU 371R
PMU 510R
PMU 511R
PMU 512R
PMU 513R
VMG 385S
VMG 386S
YYW 647T (all OHS units)

UND 493S (SA demo unit used on Euro Test)
UNG 570S (BRS unit)
ZM-6037 (Greek unit)
PX-2491 (Greek rigid eight)
PNN-6153 (Greek rigid eight)
? (Greek rigid eight - brown)
? (SA demo unit in publicity brochure)
? (Prototype ‘International’ unit)
? (US demo unit)

TOTAL = 19

Robert

Give it a year or two, and there will be enough for another book.

[robert1952]

[zb]
anorak:
Give it a year or two, and there will be enough for another book.

Yes, I just need 91. I only write books about models of which 91 were made! Robert

[robert1952]

I was chatting to Andy Mclean recently, who used to work for OHS. I hadn’t realised that he and a colleague had been responsible for choosing the ten LHD Seddon-Atkinson 400 ‘Internationals’ on the OHS fleet. It was largely the American driveline that attracted them. Andy remembers going out to Trieste to recover one that had been abandoned by its driver (not uncommon in those days!). Andy thought it was a superb truck and enjoyed the drive. This was clearly a potentially serious contender in the race to make good Euro-trucks. I wonder if the quirky shift pattern in the otherwise excellent 9-speed Fuller 'box put people off… Robert

[dave_docwra]

robert1952:
I wonder if the quirky shift pattern in the otherwise excellent 9-speed Fuller 'box put people off… Robert

Hi Robert,I wonder if it would have felt more natural fitted in a LHD vehicle.

Dave.

[robert1952]

dave docwra:

robert1952:
I wonder if the quirky shift pattern in the otherwise excellent 9-speed Fuller 'box put people off… Robert

Hi Robert,I wonder if it would have felt more natural fitted in a LHD vehicle.

Dave.

I’ve given that question a lot of thought, and I think the answer is probably ‘no’! In the 2-series Scania that ten-speed gearbox was much nicer to use in LHD because the dog-leg 1st/6th position came more readily to hand and because the shift pattern was slightly raked to towards the driver (rather than away from him in the RHD version). However, the ‘U’-shaped (as opposed to ‘H’-shaped) pattern in the 9-speed Fuller would feel much the same whichever side of the engine hump you sat; likewise the back-to-front 'boxes with the ‘H’-shape upside-down. Having said that, it might be a matter of taste. My own feelings are that I never minded those quirky 'boxes (including the upside-down ZF 12-speed 'box in Mercedes 1626s) were fine if that is what you drove every day and every week. If, however, you were jumping in and out of all sorts of different makes and models, as I was doing in my early days of trucking, it meant that nothing felt automatic and led to more stressful driving. If you gave me one these SA 400 ‘Internationals’ tomorrow and said, ‘right lad, that’s your motor; go and load for Istanbul’ I’d be fine. Robert

[nazmi_ozcan]

Dear Robert ,
Seddon’s were use in Uk>Turkish runs at first , 1975/1976 as far as I recall .
and had no trouble wıth them. The only problem was beıng a sıngle axle 4x2 whıle tryın g to load them wıth export goods fm Tr had some problems wıth the weıght , other than that no problems at all.
After 1979/1980 Turkısg Traffıc was not good, therefore had to utılıse the Seddon’s ın M/East runs, Kuwaıt and Baghdad.Am not a mechanıc and to be honest do not understand a lot technıcal thıngs about the trucks , was not a drıver eıther. The only problem I can recall ıs was ın wınter ; due to severe weather condıtıons ın Eastern Block Countrıes, i.e. R/H/Cz , had some troubles wıthe the dıesel tanks,and fuel pumps, when there ıs a severe cold, had problems wıth the fuel tanks , not transferrıng dıesel to pumps, exactly condensatıon .
5-6 trucks were stopped due to thıs very small but a bıg problems.
I 'd also travelled wıth a Seddon almost 600 kms and was comfortable for the drıver to drıve.
Oooo Good old days Dear Robert. A Seddon drıver got stuck ın Romanıa , near Arad , due to dıesel tank problem , as you know ın thgose days ıt used to take mınımum 6 hours to get a lıne fm Romanıa to UK , got a call 03.00 hours ın the mornıng , had a few beers before goıng to bed>> poor guy tryıng to tell me what has happened , saıd take ıt easy , tmrw there wıll be 3 more drıvers at Arad wıth you , wıth theır assıstane we wıll sort out the problem…Dont ask me ıf you mıss those days plse…Yes I DOOOOO

robert1952:
I have to say, I find these rather endearing. They were displayed at the Amsterdam motor show in ’76 and were ordered by OHS and by various Greek companies.

0

OHS ran several of them to the Middle East (Kuwait and Baghdad among other destinations). It is a testament to them that a number of RHD 400s went down to the Middle East too with companies like Whittle, Bowker, Creedspeed and Atkins. The back-to-front and U-shaped Fuller RTO9095A didn’t take long to get used to if you had the same truck all the time. I used to drive a RHD one and you eventually fell into the pattern.

The driveline was fantastic, with a 13t rear axle connected to the 9sp Fuller and the big turbocharged ■■■■■■■ NTC 335.

It had a pleasing appearance with a handsome cab and a good ride-height. It’s a shame that none of my LHD pics show them with sun-visors. The addition of a visor and Kaysor to LHD 400s would make all the difference.

On the subject of Seddon-Atkinson 400s, I have found several references on these threads to the NTC 335-powered left-hand-drive ones operated by OHS on Middle-East work, having the standard 9-speed Fuller installed. There are also references to the Greek export version (same as the OHS ones, I believe) also having 9-speed Fullers.

I add below a bit of evidence here to jog some memories. FROM Commercial Motor 23rd Jan 1976. Seddon Atkinson to Amsterdam.
THE first three Seddon Atkinson 400 series tractive units built to Continental specification will be exhibited at the 1976 Amsterdam Motor Show (February 5-14). The truck was shown in prototype form at the last Amsterdam Show in 1974.
■■■■■■■ engines power all :three trucks. Two use the turbocharged NTC-335 which produces 233kW (313bhp) at 2,100rpm while the third has the naturally aspirated NHC. 250 with 170kW (228bhp) available. All three use identical drive-lines through Lipe-Rollway twin-plate clutches and Fuller RTO 9509A gearboxes to Seddon 13-tonne rear axles.
Two of the trucks have sleeper-cabs, each with two bunks, and other standard features include an alarm clock and an overnight case in its- own compartment.
Seddon Atkinson claims that the 3.5m (lift 6in) wheelbase gives excellent trailer matching even with the sleeper-cab models. Kerb weights including fifth wheel, 363 litres (80gal) of fuel, spare wheel; and carrier are 6.67 tonnes (6.56 tons) for the 335-engined unit with the short cab and 6.78 tonnes (6.67 tons) with the sleeper-cab.
The vehicles will be displayed on the stand of Ets Hocke SPRL which represents Seddon Atkinson throughout the Benelux countries.

OHS’s Seddon-Atkinsons were all LHD 400 ‘Internationals.’ There is a brochure called ‘Seddon-Atkinson 400 series International range’, but I’ve not seen one.

OHS’s units were ordered direct from the factory. There were several, delivered in pairs in threes over a long period.

On the OHS thread on Trucknet there are plenty of blogs about these.
Drivers spoke highly of them.

Robert

1

[robert1952]

Nazmi Ozcan:
Dear Robert ,
Seddon’s were use in Uk>Turkish runs at first , 1975/1976 as far as I recall .
and had no trouble wıth them. The only problem was beıng a sıngle axle 4x2 whıle tryın g to load them wıth export goods fm Tr had some problems wıth the weıght , other than that no problems at all.
After 1979/1980 Turkısg Traffıc was not good, therefore had to utılıse the Seddon’s ın M/East runs, Kuwaıt and Baghdad.Am not a mechanıc and to be honest do not understand a lot technıcal thıngs about the trucks , was not a drıver eıther. The only problem I can recall ıs was ın wınter ; due to severe weather condıtıons ın Eastern Block Countrıes, i.e. R/H/Cz , had some troubles wıthe the dıesel tanks,and fuel pumps, when there ıs a severe cold, had problems wıth the fuel tanks , not transferrıng dıesel to pumps, exactly condensatıon .
5-6 trucks were stopped due to thıs very small but a bıg problems.
I 'd also travelled wıth a Seddon almost 600 kms and was comfortable for the drıver to drıve.
Oooo Good old days Dear Robert. A Seddon drıver got stuck ın Romanıa , near Arad , due to dıesel tank problem , as you know ın thgose days ıt used to take mınımum 6 hours to get a lıne fm Romanıa to UK , got a call 03.00 hours ın the mornıng , had a few beers before goıng to bed>> poor guy tryıng to tell me what has happened , saıd take ıt easy , tmrw there wıll be 3 more drıvers at Arad wıth you , wıth theır assıstane we wıll sort out the problem…Dont ask me ıf you mıss those days plse…Yes I DOOOOO

robert1952:
I have to say, I find these rather endearing. They were displayed at the Amsterdam motor show in ’76 and were ordered by OHS and by various Greek companies.

0

OHS ran several of them to the Middle East (Kuwait and Baghdad among other destinations). It is a testament to them that a number of RHD 400s went down to the Middle East too with companies like Whittle, Bowker, Creedspeed and Atkins. The back-to-front and U-shaped Fuller RTO9095A didn’t take long to get used to if you had the same truck all the time. I used to drive a RHD one and you eventually fell into the pattern.

The driveline was fantastic, with a 13t rear axle connected to the 9sp Fuller and the big turbocharged ■■■■■■■ NTC 335.

It had a pleasing appearance with a handsome cab and a good ride-height. It’s a shame that none of my LHD pics show them with sun-visors. The addition of a visor and Kaysor to LHD 400s would make all the difference.

On the subject of Seddon-Atkinson 400s, I have found several references on these threads to the NTC 335-powered left-hand-drive ones operated by OHS on Middle-East work, having the standard 9-speed Fuller installed. There are also references to the Greek export version (same as the OHS ones, I believe) also having 9-speed Fullers.

I add below a bit of evidence here to jog some memories. FROM Commercial Motor 23rd Jan 1976. Seddon Atkinson to Amsterdam.
THE first three Seddon Atkinson 400 series tractive units built to Continental specification will be exhibited at the 1976 Amsterdam Motor Show (February 5-14). The truck was shown in prototype form at the last Amsterdam Show in 1974.
■■■■■■■ engines power all :three trucks. Two use the turbocharged NTC-335 which produces 233kW (313bhp) at 2,100rpm while the third has the naturally aspirated NHC. 250 with 170kW (228bhp) available. All three use identical drive-lines through Lipe-Rollway twin-plate clutches and Fuller RTO 9509A gearboxes to Seddon 13-tonne rear axles.
Two of the trucks have sleeper-cabs, each with two bunks, and other standard features include an alarm clock and an overnight case in its- own compartment.
Seddon Atkinson claims that the 3.5m (lift 6in) wheelbase gives excellent trailer matching even with the sleeper-cab models. Kerb weights including fifth wheel, 363 litres (80gal) of fuel, spare wheel; and carrier are 6.67 tonnes (6.56 tons) for the 335-engined unit with the short cab and 6.78 tonnes (6.67 tons) with the sleeper-cab.
The vehicles will be displayed on the stand of Ets Hocke SPRL which represents Seddon Atkinson throughout the Benelux countries.

OHS’s Seddon-Atkinsons were all LHD 400 ‘Internationals.’ There is a brochure called ‘Seddon-Atkinson 400 series International range’, but I’ve not seen one.

OHS’s units were ordered direct from the factory. There were several, delivered in pairs in threes over a long period.

On the OHS thread on Trucknet there are plenty of blogs about these.
Drivers spoke highly of them.

Robert

1

I love the detail and truth of your memories about these vehicles. I too, remember how bleak it could be in Arad! Clearly, Seddon-Atkinson needed to do more homework on fuel-line insulation. Thank you for posting, Nazmi. Robert

[robert1952]

There is an excellent article by Peter Davies on both the LHD and RHD versions of the SA400 in the September issue of Classic Trucks magazine. . There are plenty of good pics. The only thing that perplexes me is that it the LHD version is referred to throughout as the 400 ‘European’, when the promo literature called it the 400 ‘International’ (presumably because ERF’s ‘European’ had already appeared on the market. Robert

[robert1952]

robert1952:
There is an excellent article by Peter Davies on both the LHD and RHD versions of the SA400 in the September issue of Classic Trucks magazine. . There are plenty of good pics. The only thing that perplexes me is that it the LHD version is referred to throughout as the 400 ‘European’, when the promo literature called it the 400 ‘International’ (presumably because ERF’s ‘European’ had already appeared on the market. Robert

I’ve just read the article more slowly. The prototype SA400 was the ■■■■■■■ NTC 335-powered LHD sleeper-cabbed Euro-spec version that is the subject of this thread. It was shown at Earls Court in 1974. Astonishingly, it wasn’t one of the options on offer thereafter! A handful of operators (like OHS) asked for them and received them; but they were not on the menu - plenty of 180-Gardner-powered RHD day-cabbed units, yes, but not the flagship itself. Given that this came just one year after ERF’s NGC ‘European’ and had the same engine but a far more advanced cab, it beggars belief that this version of the SA400 wasn’t marketed to compete with the Continentals. It came out three years before the B-series ‘European’ too! Robert

[postman_paul]

robert1952:
Any old road-up, to get back to LHD 400s again, here is what appears to be a day-cabbed prototype… Robert

0

I wonder where this ended up Robert?

[robert1952]

postman paul:

robert1952:
Any old road-up, to get back to LHD 400s again, here is what appears to be a day-cabbed prototype… Robert

0

I wonder where this ended up Robert?

Hello mate! Another mystery, I suppose. Robert

[nazmi_ozcan]

Dear Robert , Seddon Atkinson’s at the time , as I 've said before am not a mechanich neither a Lorry Driver , was in the office as Group’s Co-Ordinator of OHS ( speaking English/German/Turkish) found these trucks comfortable to driver and live , reason being hv travelled in Seddon’s almos more than 2000 kms ( was very young at the time only 25-26 years old) ,were they suitable for M/East Job? To be honest has very little problems during their M/East runs …Unfortunately most of the fleet was US Macks , which were at the time donkeys for M/East plus having problems especially in the severe winter conditions had no choice but to release them from the fleet.
As far as I recall services were not upto standards at the time, early 80 ies ( God am OLDD )
Still nice to remember the old days.
kind regards

robert1952:

postman paul:

robert1952:
Any old road-up, to get back to LHD 4s again, here is what appears to be a day-cabbed prototype… Robert

0

I wonder where this ended up Robert?

Hello mate! Another mystery, I suppose. Robert

[robert1952]

Nazmi Ozcan:
Dear Robert , Seddon Atkinson’s at the time , as I 've said before am not a mechanich neither a Lorry Driver , was in the office as Group’s Co-Ordinator of OHS ( speaking English/German/Turkish) found these trucks comfortable to driver and live , reason being hv travelled in Seddon’s almos more than 2000 kms ( was very young at the time only 25-26 years old) ,were they suitable for M/East Job? To be honest has very little problems during their M/East runs …Unfortunately most of the fleet was US Macks , which were at the time donkeys for M/East plus having problems especially in the severe winter conditions had no choice but to release them from the fleet.
As far as I recall services were not upto standards at the time, early 80 ies ( God am OLDD )
Still nice to remember the old days.
kind regards

It clearly had a lot of potential then! Cheers, Robert

[robert1952]

Here is an excellent article by Peter Davies on both the LHD and RHD versions of the SA400 in the September issue of Classic Trucks magazine. . There are plenty of good pics. The only thing that perplexes me is that it the LHD version is referred to throughout as the 400 ‘European’, when the promo literature called it the 400 ‘International’ (presumably because ERF’s ‘European’ had already appeared on the market). Nonetheless, Peter’s usual attention to detail is certainly present in this superb piece. Robert

[carryfast]

robert1952:
Here is an excellent article by Peter Davies on both the LHD and RHD versions of the SA400 in the September issue of Classic Trucks magazine.

Thanks for posting that interesting article Robert.It was good to see some accurate acknowledgment of the damage which opening up our markets to the flood of EEC imports did.It was also interesting to read the details of IH having a 30% stake in DAF. The obvious resulting conflict of interest might explain why SA seemed to being artificially held back.When there seems to be no reason as to why turbo Rolls and small and then big cam ■■■■■■■ with 13 speed fuller shouldn’t have been the default spec through the 1970’s which would probably have been a DAF 2800 killer.