windrush:
I would be surprised if Carryfasts Sed Ak could manage that payload as the eight legger version was too blooming heavy even with a Gardner engine! A Foden might have managed it though!
Pete.
To be fair it’s the inconvenient truth that the market demands of 1978 were in a different world to 1972 and ramone’s scenario wasn’t exactly the main buying criterea in the day.Although,like Leyland and Bedford,IH was also in on the,let’s close the Brits down,but try not to make it look too obvious,plan.
windrush:
I would be surprised if Carryfasts Sed Ak could manage that payload as the eight legger version was too blooming heavy even with a Gardner engine! A Foden might have managed it though!
Pete.
To be fair it’s the inconvenient truth that the market demands of 1978 were in a different world to 1972 and ramone’s scenario wasn’t exactly the main buying criterea in the day.Although,like Leyland and Bedford,IH was also in on the,let’s close the Brits down,but try not to make it look too obvious,plan.
Strange that , because F86s and then F7s were selling like hot cakes but obviously you hadn`t put them right on the errors of their ways. The inconvenient truth is that hauliers would buy what suited their needs best.
So when you were running your Buffalo did you have a mechanic driving it or did you have a team of them on stand by that were staged along the route that it would hopefully complete.
The only reason my dad bought Marathons was that was the only way he could get rid of his Buffalos, no one else ( not even Malky Harrison ) would even look at them. Personally I like the look of them, and I know there are people on here that are looking at them through rose tinted glasses. but in reality if you compare them with what Europe and Scandinavia were offering at the time it’s a no brainer. Tip in an F 10 or F12 at 3 years and you could get a good deal… try the some thing with a 3 year old Buffalo and you might get enough to take your family out for a meal ( so long as they weren’t to hungry )…
I think the design team must have had either had their hands tied, or they had their heads firmly buried in the sand as to what was happening in Europe. On paper they had the numbers but they just didn’t deliver. If it had been properly designed and developed, and released in the late 60 then it would have been a game changer, but as it was like always for Leyland… to little to late…
That road test posted earlier was embarrassing, I think a 12 year old boy could see through that one. Their attitude to design and finish was totally wrong as to what the maturing Europeans were looking for. They tried to sell them here in Australia at the end of the M2 range, but they were competing against K1 Kenworth, Mack R600’s, and S line Internationals. There was a farmer in Queensland that bought 2 new ones for$5,000 cause the dealer had them sitting for 3 years and no one would buy them.
As for the T45 if you look at it from the design prospective it had a great deal of potential… but it fell on it ■■■ at delivery. Who ever gave the go ahead to release it with those noisy back axles should have been given their marching orders on the spot. You could hear them coming for miles… ( What a blooming embarrassment ) I remember seeing a program of tele about the design of the T45 and some bloke in a lab coat going on about the flowing use of sausage shapes… say no more…
Jelliot:
So when you were running your Buffalo did you have a mechanic driving it or did you have a team of them on stand by that were staged along the route that it would hopefully complete.
The only reason my dad bought Marathons was that was the only way he could get rid of his Buffalos, no one else ( not even Malky Harrison ) would even look at them. Personally I like the look of them, and I know there are people on here that are looking at them through rose tinted glasses. but in reality if you compare them with what Europe and Scandinavia were offering at the time it’s a no brainer. Tip in an F 10 or F12 at 3 years and you could get a good deal… try the some thing with a 3 year old Buffalo and you might get enough to take your family out for a meal ( so long as they weren’t to hungry )…
I think the design team must have had either had their hands tied, or they had their heads firmly buried in the sand as to what was happening in Europe. On paper they had the numbers but they just didn’t deliver. If it had been properly designed and developed, and released in the late 60 then it would have been a game changer, but as it was like always for Leyland… to little to late…
That road test posted earlier was embarrassing, I think a 12 year old boy could see through that one. Their attitude to design and finish was totally wrong as to what the maturing Europeans were looking for. They tried to sell them here in Australia at the end of the M2 range, but they were competing against K1 Kenworth, Mack R600’s, and S line Internationals. There was a farmer in Queensland that bought 2 new ones for$5,000 cause the dealer had them sitting for 3 years and no one would buy them.
As for the T45 if you look at it from the design prospective it had a great deal of potential… but it fell on it ■■■ at delivery. Who ever gave the go ahead to release it with those noisy back axles should have been given their marching orders on the spot. You could hear them coming for miles… ( What a blooming embarrassment ) I remember seeing a program of tele about the design of the T45 and some bloke in a lab coat going on about the flowing use of sausage shapes… say no more…
Jeff
Were your dads Marathons any good , the Buffalo was a disaster with the fixed head engine
The dealer was Heron trucks in Edinburgh. Not far from Pollocks yard. Dad wanted all 3 with ■■■■■■■ but had to settle for 1 with a TL12 in it. 2 of them were running molasses from Stoke up round the Scottish highlands on Farm drops and 1 was doing Greece with plastic pipes then back loading from Yugoslavia or Austria. As far as I know 1 of the Scottish ones was swapped for the Greek one as it ( the Greek one ) was causing trouble, if I remember right the fan drive was problematic and kept chewing up radiators. I can’t remember which one had the TL 12 in it and which had the ■■■■■■■■ The guy next door to us had a Marathon with a TL 12 in it and it was a complete lemon, again it was traded against a Buffalo…
The deal at the time was priced for all the trucks to be painted and sign writing done per delivery, big fuel tank for the Greek truck. Hatcher head board and air horns as well. and I think the 5th wheels were thrown in as well to sweeten the deal on all the trucks. delivery was with in 3 weeks for the 1st truck with the other 2 a week later. Dad was getting pushed to take a 6x4 for the Greek truck and nearly did as it was offered 500 quid cheaper. Scania turned up in the yard a couple of days after the deal was done with a tempting offer but couldn’t deliver a truck for 3 months. Volvo was changing from Ailsa trucks to Eurotruck at the time and couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag let alone get their act together to sell a truck.
Carryfast:
To be fair it’s the inconvenient truth that the market demands of 1978 were in a different world to 1972 and ramone’s scenario wasn’t exactly the main buying criterea in the day.Although,like Leyland and Bedford,IH was also in on the,let’s close the Brits down,but try not to make it look too obvious,plan.
Strange that , because F86s and then F7s were selling like hot cakes but obviously you hadn`t put them right on the errors of their ways. The inconvenient truth is that hauliers would buy what suited their needs best.
Surprised no one has mentioned the Guy Big J with an 8 LXB in it.Makes ( a lot ) more sense than the Marathon to me.
Jelliot you are right, the Buffalo engine didn’t last long but Ramone’s theoretical job requirements mentioned a good rate for the job and 21 tons loads in a 100 mile radius, so we would assume no nights away or if there then regular digs could be arranged so the ergo day cab perfectly adequate.
Good enough rate would take care of the extra maintenance these vehicles needed, the extra performance over almost anything else light enough available at the time again would pay for the extra upkeep.
22 tons possible payload would give you some leeway regarding axle overloads.
The Buffalos i drove would cruise quite happily at 75, and the engine gearbox combination, 9 speed roadranger if i recall, gave a very nice drive, fantastic steering lock and good visibility all round, so this driver at least actually enjoyed his job.
No you wouldn’t buy a Buffalo for the long haul, but weight wise they took some beating at the time.
As for resale, most hauliers didn’t get rid of their vehicles so soon, and by the time year 5 or 7 arrived most cabs were rotters and the fibre glass ones falling apart too.
I only worked one place who had a queue of OD’s and small hauliers waiting to buy the motors, usually 5 to 7 years they were kept, either Sed Acks or ERF’s but with the odd Crusader Marathon T45 and one old stager BigJ in the mix during my time there, the vehicles were probably the best maintained fleet in the county and one of the best in the country, but the vehicles were overspecced new to begin with (well apart from the BigJ), biggest engine available usually ■■■■■■■ 14 litre (290 Rolls in the Crusaders), Fuller, Rockwell high ratio axles (one even found its way onto a Crusader , talk about high geared), engine oils changed at 15k, gearbox and axle oils changed every third engine oil change.
Chassis shot blasted and painted at least every other year, cabs refurbed and any rot dealt with and fully repainted at about year 3, with any mid term damage fixed quickly.
I learned a lot there about caring for my own cars and 4x4’s which i run for years, its stood me in good stead and the number of vehicle problems (yes i buy cars and 4x4’s with big enough engines so they run easy) i’ve had you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Without being dragged into the abyss of The learned gentleman of Leatherhead
At Stirlands we ran Gardner powered day cabbed ERFs and with certain trailers could obtain a 22 tonne payload
This was crucial because of a contract we had with Pedigree Petfoods in Melton Mowbray
We were paid by the case and we ran to and from Nottingham to Melton where on return to Nottingham the loads were broken down and orders were picked and dispatched to the North of England and all over Scotland including the majority of the Scottish isles
gazsa401:
Without being dragged into the abyss of The learned gentleman of Leatherhead
At Stirlands we ran Gardner powered day cabbed ERFs and with certain trailers could obtain a 22 tonne payload
This was crucial because of a contract we had with Pedigree Petfoods in Melton Mowbray
We were paid by the case and we ran to and from Nottingham to Melton where on return to Nottingham the loads were broken down and orders were picked and dispatched to the North of England and all over Scotland including the majority of the Scottish isles
You’ll get no argument from me that no one could do poverty spec heaps as good as the Brits.However it would be a silly exaggeration and rewriting of history,to suggest that a buying criterea based on a bit of extra payload,was that big a thing which tilted the balance in favour of such heaps in any big way.
As opposed to more buyers deserting them in their droves for things like the DAF 2800 and Volvo F10/12 if not the similar E290 or Rolls powered Brits with a good scattering of Bedford TM in there too.
While ironically the plan which I’m suggesting,of the deliberate run down and closure of the UK truck manufacturing industry,also seems to confirm that.As just concentrating on staying with such heaps,as opposed to developments like the SA 400 and Bedford TM etc,would have just made it all too obvious.It’s just that where SA and Bedford went a bit over the top on the don’t make it too obvious bit,Leyland did the opposite in going over the top on the let’s deliberately ■■■■■■■ the thing to put the customers off and drive them into buying the foreign competion bit.While ‘if’ it was all about customers supposedly wanting a light,good earner,then surely any of the usual 8 cylinder Gardner powered suspects would have been better than the TL12 powered Marathon ?.Bearing in mind that the TL12’s stroke disadvantage defeated the object of turbocharging the thing.
While even the T45,let alone the Marathon,was never going to be any threat to the DAF 2800/3300/3600 let alone the F 10/12.Just as intended.So exactly what was the point of the thing other than maybe to get some money back against Leyland’s ‘development’ costs and a load of unwanted TL12 engines and ■■■■■■■ off as many customers as possible,before eventually closing the doors on AEC then Leyland itself.
ramone:
So it`s 1978 , ABC Haulage have just set up , they have a contract to haul 21 ton payloads of goods to 4 destinations in a 100 mile radius , the rates are excellent but they must get 21 tons payload on their 32 tonners , what vehicle do they buy ■■?
Is it only one 200 mile bulk drops run per day ?.Does it involve some decent hills ?.Can the overall payload requirement in terms of runs/drops be averaged out so it all doesn’t have to go on the truck at the same time.Is the job as you’ve described it worth taking on anyway.If it is then is the the Marathon the best tool for the job ?.
So it’s 1978.
I’ll take that thanks in preference to the piece of junk Marathon or the cramped small engined screamers.The payload can look after itself and I’m not interested in the local multi drop job anyway at any rate because it’s too many drops within a too small radius from base for me.
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
dazcapri:
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
Which can only mean that examples like the DAF 2800,Volvo F10/12,Scania 110/111 were financially unviable to run on grounds of payload.Which doesn’t seem to fit the facts.
While if it’s all supposedly about the best guvnor’s wagon and payload then surely the usual plastic cab and 8 cylinder Gardner combination suspects were better for that than the Marathon and TL12 one.So full marks for Leyland’s attempt to put themselves out of the frame because they actually succeeded in alienating both ends of the erratic UK market in the day.
Juddian:
Jelliot you are right, the Buffalo engine didn’t last long but Ramone’s theoretical job requirements mentioned a good rate for the job and 21 tons loads in a 100 mile radius, so we would assume no nights away or if there then regular digs could be arranged so the ergo day cab perfectly adequate.
Good enough rate would take care of the extra maintenance these vehicles needed, the extra performance over almost anything else light enough available at the time again would pay for the extra upkeep.
22 tons possible payload would give you some leeway regarding axle overloads.
The Buffalos i drove would cruise quite happily at 75, and the engine gearbox combination, 9 speed roadranger if i recall, gave a very nice drive, fantastic steering lock and good visibility all round, so this driver at least actually enjoyed his job.
No you wouldn’t buy a Buffalo for the long haul, but weight wise they took some beating at the time.
As for resale, most hauliers didn’t get rid of their vehicles so soon, and by the time year 5 or 7 arrived most cabs were rotters and the fibre glass ones falling apart too.
I only worked one place who had a queue of OD’s and small hauliers waiting to buy the motors, usually 5 to 7 years they were kept, either Sed Acks or ERF’s but with the odd Crusader Marathon T45 and one old stager BigJ in the mix during my time there, the vehicles were probably the best maintained fleet in the county and one of the best in the country, but the vehicles were overspecced new to begin with (well apart from the BigJ), biggest engine available usually ■■■■■■■ 14 litre (290 Rolls in the Crusaders), Fuller, Rockwell high ratio axles (one even found its way onto a Crusader , talk about high geared), engine oils changed at 15k, gearbox and axle oils changed every third engine oil change.
Chassis shot blasted and painted at least every other year, cabs refurbed and any rot dealt with and fully repainted at about year 3, with any mid term damage fixed quickly.
I learned a lot there about caring for my own cars and 4x4’s which i run for years, its stood me in good stead and the number of vehicle problems (yes i buy cars and 4x4’s with big enough engines so they run easy) i’ve had you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Yes you are quite right , maybe I didnt express myself properly but my point was 1 drop local, motors that could carry 21 tons with the payload being critical within a 100 mile radius . Theres always a market for non premium lorries. Your company sounds like old school , many did rebuilds years ago but its more of a disposable market now. You state that you buy cars with big engines ,Im the same until last week , ive bought a Volvo S90 and I couldn`t believe that it was a 4 cylinder 2.0 litre diesel . the power is awesome for the size of the car and the size of the engine, apparently some whizz kids at Volvo have come with a new system to extract more power…that smacks of the F86 6.7 litre
gazsa401:
Without being dragged into the abyss of The learned gentleman of Leatherhead
At Stirlands we ran Gardner powered day cabbed ERFs and with certain trailers could obtain a 22 tonne payload
This was crucial because of a contract we had with Pedigree Petfoods in Melton Mowbray
We were paid by the case and we ran to and from Nottingham to Melton where on return to Nottingham the loads were broken down and orders were picked and dispatched to the North of England and all over Scotland including the majority of the Scottish isles
Didn`t your company ever consider F12 Globetrotters ■■?
dazcapri:
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
Which can only mean that examples like the DAF 2800,Volvo F10/12,Scania 110/111 were financially unviable to run on grounds of payload.Which doesn’t seem to fit the facts.
While if it’s all supposedly about the best guvnor’s wagon and payload then surely the usual plastic cab and 8 cylinder Gardner combination suspects were better for that than the Marathon and TL12 one.So full marks for Leyland’s attempt to put themselves out of the frame because they actually succeeded in alienating both ends of the erratic UK market in the day.
ramone:
So it`s 1978 , ABC Haulage have just set up , they have a contract to haul 21 ton payloads of goods to 4 destinations in a 100 mile radius , the rates are excellent but they must get 21 tons payload on their 32 tonners , what vehicle do they buy ■■?
Is it only one 200 mile bulk drops run per day ?.Does it involve some decent hills ?.Can the overall payload requirement in terms of runs/drops be averaged out so it all doesn’t have to go on the truck at the same time.Is the job as you’ve described it worth taking on anyway.If it is then is the the Marathon the best tool for the job ?.
So it’s 1978.
I’ll take that thanks in preference to the piece of junk Marathon or the cramped small engined screamers.The payload can look after itself and I’m not interested in the local multi drop job anyway at any rate because it’s too many drops within a too small radius from base for me.
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
You hit the nail on the head Daz , can you imagine him running his own business , well you might want 21 tons payload but you will have to put up with 19.5 cos that’s all it carries … close the door on your way out
dazcapri:
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
Which can only mean that examples like the DAF 2800,Volvo F10/12,Scania 110/111 were financially unviable to run on grounds of payload.Which doesn’t seem to fit the facts.
While if it’s all supposedly about the best guvnor’s wagon and payload then surely the usual plastic cab and 8 cylinder Gardner combination suspects were better for that than the Marathon and TL12 one.So full marks for Leyland’s attempt to put themselves out of the frame because they actually succeeded in alienating both ends of the erratic UK market in the day.
How come they sold so many ?
How was the F12 Volvo’s biggest seller by 1983 ?.How many 8 cylinder Gardner powered wagons did Bewick have compared to TL12 powered Marathons ?.How many Scania 82/92 v Gardner and 112.Did that create a payload crisis within his operation ?.
As I said Leyland ( and to an extent the small engined screamers ) managed to do the impossible of making a turbocharged motor that was actually inferior to an NA one.Which also explains why you’re more likely to find even the most average truck now with a 12 litre +,6 inch + stroke motor in it than a TL12 type design or a 7-9 litre lawn mower motor.
dazcapri:
Typical Carryfast not actually answering the question "they must carry a 21 ton payload your reply “the payload can look after itself”,your one of the cab happy lot who would rather go bust than run a truck that doesn’t live up to your smokey and the bandit image of trucking
Which can only mean that examples like the DAF 2800,Volvo F10/12,Scania 110/111 were financially unviable to run on grounds of payload.Which doesn’t seem to fit the facts.
While if it’s all supposedly about the best guvnor’s wagon and payload then surely the usual plastic cab and 8 cylinder Gardner combination suspects were better for that than the Marathon and TL12 one.So full marks for Leyland’s attempt to put themselves out of the frame because they actually succeeded in alienating both ends of the erratic UK market in the day.
On the work specified DAF 2800,Volvo F12’s etc were financially unviable because they couldn’t carry the weight you keep saying why would anyone buy a Marathon instead of an F12 maybe because at the time and for a specific job it was the better option. In 1978-79 my dad was driving a Scammell Crusader day cab 220 engine pulling a tipper on coal, short distance stuff, through villages etc he hardly ever drove on a bypass never mind a motorway. In his case the choice between a marathon or F12 would have been simple the 12 wouldn’t have been much use he didn’t need the extra power because he rarely got up to any real speed on the roads he was using. There’s one thing you’ve got right that model of Marathon shouldn’t have been on that road test it should have been the big cabbed euro version but that’s typical of the BL management of the time
gazsa401:
Without being dragged into the abyss of The learned gentleman of Leatherhead
At Stirlands we ran Gardner powered day cabbed ERFs and with certain trailers could obtain a 22 tonne payload
This was crucial because of a contract we had with Pedigree Petfoods in Melton Mowbray
We were paid by the case and we ran to and from Nottingham to Melton where on return to Nottingham the loads were broken down and orders were picked and dispatched to the North of England and all over Scotland including the majority of the Scottish isles
Didn`t your company ever consider F12 Globetrotters ■■?
No Ramone they couldn’t afford to run them [emoji12]
Then again Stirlands were the second most profitable company within TDG
So they must have been doing something right
A Foden might have managed it though!
, talk about high geared), engine oils changed at 15k, gearbox and axle oils changed every third engine oil change.
