Leyland Marathon...The "Nearly" Truck of The 1970s?

I’ve been reading through a British Leyland internal policy document from April 1971 that was commissioned to look at their three premium truck plants, Leyland, AEC, and Guy, and their future production. Leyland was producing at almost 100% capacity, AEC had been at 100% capacity but with the end of Routemaster bus driveline production it had spare capacity, and Guy was at about 80% capacity. Guy was the smallest plant and it was almost purely an assembly operation, the only manufacturing carried out was its own rear axle. One proposal discussed in the document was the closure of Guy with Big J production being transferred to AEC at Southall. A second proposal was the closure of AEC, but Guy and Leyland could not absorb AEC’s manufacturing and assembly capacity so that idea was a non-starter. Therefore AEC would build the new premium truck model (i.e. the Marathon) scheduled for launch in late 1973, (which was when it was announced). Interestingly at the date of this document the Marathon was intended to have proprietary engines fitted, what makes are not specified. However there is more than one reference to on-going development work on the AEC V8 engine, even though the Mandator V8 had been dropped 3 years earlier in 1968. Was the re-vamped V8 engine being considered for the Marathon if it could have been made reliable? In April 1971 there is not a mention at all of development of the TL12.

The individual “premium truck” production figures for each factory in 1970 are shown as follows. Unfortunately not all individual model totals were recorded.

AEC Southall
Heavy Goods (Mandator and Mammoth Major), 2,111
Medium Weights (Mercury and Marshal), 2,803
Passenger Chassis (Reliance, Swift, Merlin), 1,342
Total AEC = 6,256 (78% of capacity)

Guy Wolverhampton
Big J 32 Tons GVW Tractor Units, 1,141
Big J Eight Wheelers, 68
Big J Medium Weights, 1,345 (including 1,080 with AEC AV505 engines)
Passenger chassis, 316
Total Guy = 2,870 (80% of capacity)

Leyland
Heavy Goods (Beaver, Badger, Octopus), 1,750
*Medium Weight Comet, 3,938
500 Series (Lynx, Bison), 796
Passenger Chassis (Atlantean, Leopard), 2,082
Total Leyland = 8,566 (93% of capacity)

  • Note: Many of these Comets were an export model, not the Ergomatic Comets familiar in the UK.

A couple of other points. Firstly both Leyland and AEC had engine building capacity far in excess of their chassis building capacity. AEC bought in gearboxes from Thornycroft, and rear axles from Maudslay, both being Leyland group factories. Leyland bought gearboxes and some rear axles from Albion. AEC and Leyland Ergomatic cabs came from GKN Sankey, and Guy Big J cabs were sourced from Motor Panels.

Secondly, from the above production figures it can be seen just how large the medium weight (16 to 26 tons GVW) market was in 1970.

DEANB:
A bit about the Marathon from 1976.

Click on page twice to view.

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The Marathon cab on top of a Big J chassis. Makes sense. Surprised there was no 8LXB option.

GCR2ERF:

ERF-NGC-European:
Re ^^^ above test. It’s easy to forget what a lovely drive the F10 was - I did many miles in them. Allowing for the sort of traffic variables that Dean points out, there’s not really that much to choose between them; so much is down to personal preference. As I’ve said before, I didn’t drive the Marathon but I would almost certainly have preferred it for its constant-mesh 9-speed Fuller 'box alone. The new generation of synchro-boxes in the '70s were pretty ropy in comparison, no matter who made them (Scania’s 10-speed 'box was probably best, but only in LHD lorries because of the gates were raked leftwards). Gearbox preference cannot be ignored: if you look at the Euro-Test further up the page, you have the F12 and the SA 400, both of which I’ve driven; and I have to say that I would go for the (LHD) SA 400 with the ■■■■■■■ / Fuller because it suits my driving style (fossil that I am!). Needless to say, I am thinking like a driver here, rather than an operator, but even as an owner-driver I’d want to enjoy driving the damned thing! You’ll be relieved to know that my C+E entitlement has now expired! :laughing: Robert

Your point about how much difference the choice of gearbox makes seems just as relevant today Robert. As all lorries are now safe, comfortable etc., it’s mainly the little things about them that people tend to focus on.

However, the main point of praise or scorn levelled at modern trucks now seems to be the (automated) transmission - it’s either fantastic (step forward I-shift) or terrible, perhaps tolerable at best (certain ZF, Scania & Merc installations). To me the transmission now is the main influence on the driving experience.

Deffo like your thinking there :sunglasses: . robert

GCR2ERF:
Many thanks for the Eurotest scans folks :smiley: :slight_smile:

If DVV Media are listening, please just reprint all the test matches and LDD’s? You can name your price!!

You can name your price ! :laughing: That could be tempting ■■ :wink:

Advert,click on page twice.

gingerfold:
I’ve been reading through a British Leyland internal policy document from April 1971 that was commissioned to look at their three premium truck plants, Leyland, AEC, and Guy, and their future production. Leyland was producing at almost 100% capacity, AEC had been at 100% capacity but with the end of Routemaster bus driveline production it had spare capacity, and Guy was at about 80% capacity. Guy was the smallest plant and it was almost purely an assembly operation, the only manufacturing carried out was its own rear axle. One proposal discussed in the document was the closure of Guy with Big J production being transferred to AEC at Southall. A second proposal was the closure of AEC, but Guy and Leyland could not absorb AEC’s manufacturing and assembly capacity so that idea was a non-starter. Therefore AEC would build the new premium truck model (i.e. the Marathon) scheduled for launch in late 1973, (which was when it was announced). Interestingly at the date of this document the Marathon was intended to have proprietary engines fitted, what makes are not specified. However there is more than one reference to on-going development work on the AEC V8 engine, even though the Mandator V8 had been dropped 3 years earlier in 1968. Was the re-vamped V8 engine being considered for the Marathon if it could have been made reliable? In April 1971 there is not a mention at all of development of the TL12.

The individual “premium truck” production figures for each factory in 1970 are shown as follows. Unfortunately not all individual model totals were recorded.

AEC Southall
Heavy Goods (Mandator and Mammoth Major), 2,111
Medium Weights (Mercury and Marshal), 2,803
Passenger Chassis (Reliance, Swift, Merlin), 1,342
Total AEC = 6,256 (78% of capacity)

Guy Wolverhampton
Big J 32 Tons GVW Tractor Units, 1,141
Big J Eight Wheelers, 68
Big J Medium Weights, 1,345 (including 1,080 with AEC AV505 engines)
Passenger chassis, 316
Total Guy = 2,870 (80% of capacity)

Leyland
Heavy Goods (Beaver, Badger, Octopus), 1,750
*Medium Weight Comet, 3,938
500 Series (Lynx, Bison), 796
Passenger Chassis (Atlantean, Leopard), 2,082
Total Leyland = 8,566 (93% of capacity)

  • Note: Many of these Comets were an export model, not the Ergomatic Comets familiar in the UK.

A couple of other points. Firstly both Leyland and AEC had engine building capacity far in excess of their chassis building capacity. AEC bought in gearboxes from Thornycroft, and rear axles from Maudslay, both being Leyland group factories. Leyland bought gearboxes and some rear axles from Albion. AEC and Leyland Ergomatic cabs came from GKN Sankey, and Guy Big J cabs were sourced from Motor Panels.

Secondly, from the above production figures it can be seen just how large the medium weight (16 to 26 tons GVW) market was in 1970.

We`re Scammell not mentioned in the document , between them AEC and Leyland must have had a very large percentage of the passenger vehicle market. I would have thought the Leyland figure would have been much higher than the AECs with Southall having no double decker production

Just been looking back at an earlier Marathon Thread started in 2010 Leyland marathon - OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT - Trucknet UK
It ran for about 5 years & has lots of pics & more Magazine excerpts.

For fun I reworked the Ergo cab to full width & it would have looked much better IMHO

The posted progression ran:



ramone:
We`re Scammell not mentioned in the document , between them AEC and Leyland must have had a very large percentage of the passenger vehicle market. I would have thought the Leyland figure would have been much higher than the AECs with Southall having no double decker production

No, Scammell didn’t get a mention but it was the most autonomous division within BL, and it was left to its own devices. It had an annual output capacity of about half that of Guy, similar to ERF. In 1970 all AEC’s double deck PSV production had finished, but the Swift with 505 engine was popular, and the Merlin was the 691 version of the Swift for London Transport. Both would be replaced by the disastrous Leyland National with fixed head 500 series engine. The AEC Reliance coach was more popular than the Leyland Leopard, but Leyland claimed that the profit margin was greater with the Leopard than the Reliance. However the Reliance managed to stay in production until Southall closed in 1979. In my opinion the Reliance with Van Hoole body was one of the best looking coaches of the 1970s.

I was talking to a Guy in an R.D.C who used to drive one :wink:

whisperingsmith:
For fun I reworked the Ergo cab to full width & it would have looked much better IMHO

Proof if it were needed that the Brits were deliberately sacrificed for geopolitical reasons.How difficult could that have been to produce. :bulb: :frowning:

dave docwra:

[quote="[zb]
The Marathon cab on top of a Big J chassis. Makes sense. Surprised there was no 8LXB option.

I was talking to a Guy in an R.D.C who used to drive one :wink:
[/quote]
Nooooooooo!!!:slight_smile:

Advert.

Looks like the fella has nicked Ruper the Bear’s trousers,or he is off to have a round of golf ! :laughing: :laughing:

Click on page twice to view.

All gone to waste,what a shame.

gingerfold:

ramone:
We`re Scammell not mentioned in the document , between them AEC and Leyland must have had a very large percentage of the passenger vehicle market. I would have thought the Leyland figure would have been much higher than the AECs with Southall having no double decker production

No, Scammell didn’t get a mention but it was the most autonomous division within BL, and it was left to its own devices. It had an annual output capacity of about half that of Guy, similar to ERF. In 1970 all AEC’s double deck PSV production had finished, but the Swift with 505 engine was popular, and the Merlin was the 691 version of the Swift for London Transport. Both would be replaced by the disastrous Leyland National with fixed head 500 series engine. The AEC Reliance coach was more popular than the Leyland Leopard, but Leyland claimed that the profit margin was greater with the Leopard than the Reliance. However the Reliance managed to stay in production until Southall closed in 1979. In my opinion the Reliance with Van Hoole body was one of the best looking coaches of the 1970s.

Nothing to do with the Marathon, but as earlier I mentioned the AEC Reliance Van Hoole bodied coach here is one…

Reliance Van Hoole.jpg

gingerfold:

gingerfold:

ramone:
We`re Scammell not mentioned in the document , between them AEC and Leyland must have had a very large percentage of the passenger vehicle market. I would have thought the Leyland figure would have been much higher than the AECs with Southall having no double decker production

No, Scammell didn’t get a mention but it was the most autonomous division within BL, and it was left to its own devices. It had an annual output capacity of about half that of Guy, similar to ERF. In 1970 all AEC’s double deck PSV production had finished, but the Swift with 505 engine was popular, and the Merlin was the 691 version of the Swift for London Transport. Both would be replaced by the disastrous Leyland National with fixed head 500 series engine. The AEC Reliance coach was more popular than the Leyland Leopard, but Leyland claimed that the profit margin was greater with the Leopard than the Reliance. However the Reliance managed to stay in production until Southall closed in 1979. In my opinion the Reliance with Van Hoole body was one of the best looking coaches of the 1970s.

Nothing to do with the Marathon, but as earlier I mentioned the AEC Reliance Van Hoole bodied coach here is one…
0

With a rear engine TL12 would have been interesting

gingerfold:
Nothing to do with the Marathon, but as earlier I mentioned the AEC Reliance Van Hoole bodied coach here is one…
0

I can remember these like it was yesterday but not sure exactly what chassis this was ?.

farm3.static.flickr.com/2930/337 … 45e0_b.jpg

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
Nothing to do with the Marathon, but as earlier I mentioned the AEC Reliance Van Hoole bodied coach here is one…
0

I can remember these like it was yesterday but not sure exactly what chassis this was ?.

farm3.static.flickr.com/2930/337 … 45e0_b.jpg

Green Line ran Leyland Leopards which looked similar to the AEC Reliance that they also ran! :confused:

Pete.

windrush:

Carryfast:

gingerfold:
Nothing to do with the Marathon, but as earlier I mentioned the AEC Reliance Van Hoole bodied coach here is one…
0

I can remember these like it was yesterday but not sure exactly what chassis this was ?.

farm3.static.flickr.com/2930/337 … 45e0_b.jpg

Green Line ran Leyland Leopards which looked similar to the AEC Reliance that they also ran! :confused:

Pete.

That`s a Reliance Pete

Euro test 1975

Click on pages twice to read.

Click on pages twice to read.