cav551:
Was there not an L12 powered Buffalo? I recall working on an L12 powered 8 wheel tipper with the raised Ergo cab.
I think they briefly offered the L12 to appease AEC users , i dont think it worked. I think it was in some Texaco Marathons too but i will stand to be corrected
The L12 was used in the Buffalo, Bison, and Octopus, when the latter was re-introduced after a gap of about 7 years. All the Texaco Marathon Mk. 2 were L12 powered, and the L12 came about because of Texaco’s request for a lower powered tractor unit. The L12 was reliable but not very lively at 203 bhp
I wonder why the L12 only produced 203 bhp when the AV760 produced around 220bhp . Wasnt the L12 a non turbo TL12 which itself was a turbo AV760 reworked. Youd think the output would be significantly higher
The TL12 shared some AV760 characteristics, namely the same bore and stroke dimensions, but that was about all. The TL12 was virtually a new design planned for turbo-charging from the outset, so that was the reason the normally aspirated L12 was lower in output than the AV760. The L12 also had lower maximum rpm than the AV760. it’s a common saying that the TL12 was a re-worked AV760, but it wasn’t.
I think the one i drove was some 220/230hp '73 manufacture that would have been, which wasn’t a bad output at all from an engine just over 8 litres, a flyer anyway and decent of fuel.
Makes you wonder, i recall tareing off at just under 10 tons with a York 40ft tandem flatbed so giving a genuine 22 tons load possible.
Would it make sense to go back to cheap to run light vehicles like this for some operations especially where day cabs can be used, instead of dragging a 8.5+ ton £100k unit + £■■■ 6+ ton trailer around tare and struggling to get a genuine 28 tons on.
We’ve all got tales of being sent regularly on long journeys carrying 2 to 4 pallets on a bloody great 44 ton motors (never used to their potential) and returning empty, and yes these are usually logistics giants ■■■■■■■ the clients money up the wall, but then if the client is daft enough to not keep and eye open.
Juddian:
I think the one i drove was some 220/230hp '73 manufacture that would have been, which wasn’t a bad output at all from an engine just over 8 litres, a flyer anyway and decent of fuel.
Makes you wonder, i recall tareing off at just under 10 tons with a York 40ft tandem flatbed so giving a genuine 22 tons load possible.
Would it make sense to go back to cheap to run light vehicles like this for some operations especially where day cabs can be used, instead of dragging a 8.5+ ton £100k unit + £■■■ 6+ ton trailer around tare and struggling to get a genuine 28 tons on.
We’ve all got tales of being sent regularly on long journeys carrying 2 to 4 pallets on a bloody great 44 ton motors (never used to their potential) and returning empty, and yes these are usually logistics giants ■■■■■■■ the clients money up the wall, but then if the client is daft enough to not keep and eye open.
That was the good thing with the Bison with the 502 / Fuller. Good power at 24 ton gross, and we could get just over 15 ton payload with a steel body.
The TL11 was a better engine but was a fair bit heavier than the 502.
Tyneside
Yes, I agree the fixed head engine did perform well with the Fuller 'box, but such was the bad reputation gained by the engine failures they were expected to fail at any time. My uncle had a Lynx with a normally aspirated 500 engine and that didn’t give any problems. It lasted as long as the rest of the lorry, in other words until the cab rotted away.
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
boden:
In 1980/82 I had an R plate Rigid 6 legger skip loader pulling a trailer when on for PDM on the offal, 502 powered and 9spd Fuller. Two trips a day between Manchester Abbatoir and Widnes then back to home Bury. It was on its 3rd engine and was parked up when PDM bought the Widnes site known as Granox Ltd (GRANulated OXen) but they soon had it going so musn’t have been too knackered. They lopped the revs back to 2200 which was dead on 60 mph and it still pulled like a good’un and one of the best I’ve used, no major problems at all,a lot better than an R plate Scania 80 4 wheeler and drag they gave me for a couple of months, I was glad to see the back of that for a number of reasons.
Did it have a Buffalo or Bison badge on it ■■?
We sometimes used to call into Manchester Abbatoir to wash out after unloading pigs at Walls at Godley. Tyneside
Yes it was a Buffalo though Granox did have a T plate Bison dropside tipper with a 6 spd box and derated TL11 which had done little and was rarely used though the front grill was starting to rot. I used it once to take some equipment up to British Beef at Bamber Bridge now owned by Dunbia, where I loaded a lot of years later with a Fridge before they decided to shunt it across the road to a cold store on Walton Summit, a lot better place to collect from. I tipped at Tesco Widnes a few times and could smell the old site now owned by Saria, I believe PDM sold out to these completely a while back. Wagons were in Manchester everyday washing out after tipping at Walls. It was only 6 or 7 years back that they put a new entrance into Walls and closed off that entrance you must have used many times.
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
So how did the likes of the E290 come about with low runnig engine speeds but still producing 270 bhp. Most engines now run optimally around the 1250 1300 mark but why couldn’t AEC achieve this with the TL12 , would it have had to be totally redesigned
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
So how did the likes of the E290 come about with low runnig engine speeds but still producing 270 bhp. Most engines now run optimally around the 1250 1300 mark but why couldn’t AEC achieve this with the TL12 , would it have had to be totally redesigned
Cos 14 litre ■■■■■■■ were running some 230+hp without a turbocharger, as the saying goes there’s no replacement for displacement and that engine was in my humble one of the best lorry engines ever put into service, keep the injectors torqued and the tappets adjusted and they never gave a moment’s trouble.
Case in point, at the time i drove a 14 litre E290 on 38t full weight aggregate from Shepshed to Milton Keynes for weeks on end, another operator had two F10’s on the same job, probably around the same bhp figures but the Volvos lacking torque, not only were they taking 15 minutes longer to get to the tipping point but speaking to the owner (who drove one) they were getting over 1mpg less on fuel to boot, over the next few years i noticed their Volvos gradually being replaced by ■■■■■■■ engined Brit motors.
The 320 14 litre i got next pulled even better, and better on fuel because despite being geared for 1100rpm at 70mph, it took one hell of a motorway climb to need a downshift even at 38t, by the mid 80s Sed Ack especially had caught and beaten the foreigners at their own game (i always preferred SA, ERF seemed to me to persist in offering lower drive axle ratios and not taking enough advantage of that massive low engine speed torque), it can only have been back up that caused the demise.
All the Sed Acks i drove had simple 8 speed Fullers, never needed any more.
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
I’ve been looking into the L12 a bit more and it did prove to be quite a lot more popular than I thought it was. The RAF had a fleet of Bison L12s after AEC Mammoth Major Six production ceased, and it seems there was a sizeable number of stationary engine applications for the L12, such as stand-by generating sets, which also went into NATO reserve. Some of these have very recently been released from MoD reserve and auctioned off.
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
I’ve been looking into the L12 a bit more and it did prove to be quite a lot more popular than I thought it was. The RAF had a fleet of Bison L12s after AEC Mammoth Major Six production ceased, and it seems there was a sizeable number of stationary engine applications for the L12, such as stand-by generating sets, which also went into NATO reserve. Some of these have very recently been released from MoD reserve and auctioned off.
Would they fit into say a preserved Mandator that needed a new engine or were they totally different. You mentioned earlier that Texaco specified the Marathon with the L12 why did oil companies always want low powered units
ramone:
I never knew that i always thought the L and TL12 were just reworked AV760s , you would still expect to be able to get more than 203 bhp out of a 12.47 litre engine though
Without a turbocharger its breathing must have been compromised. Reminiscent of the Crossley type 7 engine. Cutting the revs obviously made a considerable difference as well. The 760 could attain 2400 rpm at governor run out (no load) which the engine did not like holding repeatedly for long periods.
I’ve been looking into the L12 a bit more and it did prove to be quite a lot more popular than I thought it was. The RAF had a fleet of Bison L12s after AEC Mammoth Major Six production ceased, and it seems there was a sizeable number of stationary engine applications for the L12, such as stand-by generating sets, which also went into NATO reserve. Some of these have very recently been released from MoD reserve and auctioned off.
Would they fit into say a preserved Mandator that needed a new engine or were they totally different. You mentioned earlier that Texaco specified the Marathon with the L12 why did oil companies always want low powered units
Perhaps this news about the potential availability of L12 engines needs to go onto the AEC thread Graham, and also maybe publicising a bit more widely. Mario Galea in Malta sucessfully transplanted an L12 into a Mammoth Major so it is achievable. There must be a number of AEC lorries with time expired 760s which could benefit.
The important thing is to keep the news away from these poxy Routemaster bus owners with more money that sense, who want to remove perfectly serviceable Iveco and ■■■■■■■ engines because they like the noise an AEC makes better.
Looking at the factory photograph no not with the turbocharger mounted where it is in this picture which I think is for a Marathon. The AV 760 was a tight fit under the Ergo cab and had to be tilted a few degrees towards one side anyway. If the Roadtrain installation had a rear mounted Turbo it might fit, but the torque output is most likely above the limit for the D203 six speed gearbox so a Fuller 9509 would be necessary, but that assumes that the BDDR axle can cope as well. Whether the radiator is big enough also matters.
ramone:
Would the TL12 have fitted in a Mandator or would that have been a step too far?
Cav 551 has given the answer, there were cooling problems in the Mandator with the AV760, so the low datum Ergo cab was a non-starter for the TL12. That’s why the Marathon had a much higher cab.
Another application for the L12 I have remembered was the 690 Dumptruk (I’ve seen one), and the Bush Tractor derivative of the Dumptruk.
Juddian:
I think the one i drove was some 220/230hp '73 manufacture that would have been, which wasn’t a bad output at all from an engine just over 8 litres, a flyer anyway and decent of fuel.
Makes you wonder, i recall tareing off at just under 10 tons with a York 40ft tandem flatbed so giving a genuine 22 tons load possible.
Would it make sense to go back to cheap to run light vehicles like this for some operations especially where day cabs can be used, instead of dragging a 8.5+ ton £100k unit + £■■■ 6+ ton trailer around tare and struggling to get a genuine 28 tons on.
We’ve all got tales of being sent regularly on long journeys carrying 2 to 4 pallets on a bloody great 44 ton motors (never used to their potential) and returning empty, and yes these are usually logistics giants ■■■■■■■ the clients money up the wall, but then if the client is daft enough to not keep and eye open.
Juddian, sounds like it had the 511 engine which developed 230 bhp.
ramone:
Would the TL12 have fitted in a Mandator or would that have been a step too far?
Cav 551 has given the answer, there were cooling problems in the Mandator with the AV760, so the low datum Ergo cab was a non-starter for the TL12. That’s why the Marathon had a much higher cab.
Another application for the L12 I have remembered was the 690 Dumptruk (I’ve seen one), and the Bush Tractor derivative of the Dumptruk.
I seem to remember that A E Evans converted their early Mandators to the rear of cab header tank and also that kits were supplied by AEC Nottingham,I can’t remember if the later AV760 Mandators had that arrangement as standard
I will ask an old mate of mine who was a fitter at Sheffield depot.
