Leyland Buffalo

CU250 15% cheaper than AV760
AV760 69% cheaper than CU220
AV760 110% cheaper than RR220
AV760 250% cheaper than Ley510

That is excluding routine servicing. A Possible explanation for CU220 would be that there were persistent complaints about exhaust smoke which required ‘running the overhead’ as the Yanks call it, a comparatively fenikety procedure requiring accuracy with a DTI to a +/-001" tolerance using an expensive special tool set which became latchety quite quickly in use. Get it slightly wrong and there would either be complaints of no-go or about blacking. There were two completley different procedures requiring entirely different tooling to achieve completely different settings. The use of which one over the years, IBC or OBC, seemed to change with the day of the week according to which method was in favour with Columbus Indiana in particular with the 14 litre.IIRC the 500 engine had a centrifugal oil filter, you were never popular with the other fitters if you cleaned it out in the parts washer rather than a bucket of paraffin.It certainly did its job the gunk would be getting on for half an inch thick inside it.

Re CF’s comment about “AEC fanboys”.

I make no apologies for being an admirer of AEC lorries and the products of the company… closely followed by Leyland, and of course I’m referring to the products of both companies in their heyday before everything went down hill at an alarming rate of knots.

Why do I admire AEC and Leyland? Because they were the lorries I rode about in a young lad, so I was converted at an early age. By the time I was legally old enough to drive lorries, then my uncle was running mainly AECs, with a couple of Leylands and Dodges. To me, when driving an AEC it was a far better lorry than the Leylands, (which had seen better days) and Dodge. So AEC set the benchmark for me to judge other makes. In the early 1970s I drove most of the common British makes, but in my opinion I didn’t drive anything better than an AEC.

Moving on into the 1980s and I was involved with the AEC Society and I got to know two AEC life-long employees, Harry Pick and Bob Fryars. They were contemporaries,both starting as student engineering apprentices at Southall in the 1930s. Bob Fryars is still alive at 100 years of age; Harry Pick died a couple of years ago in his 90s. Harry served as a field service engineer, manager of Maudslay at Park Works Coventry, AEC Depot manager at West Bromwich, and manager of the combined Leyland and AEC depot at Oldbury. Bob Fryars became Chief Engineer of AEC, and Chief Engineer of Leyland Truck and Bus. These are the men, engineers through and through, who imparted their knowledge of AEC and Leyland to me. Both men also had family connections with AEC before their own employment began. Harry was the nephew of Frank Pick, a senior London Transport manager, and Bob’s father was Sir Robert Fryars who was Company Secretary of AEC. So their knowledge of AEC went all the way back to its formation.

And there were several other senior AEC and Leyland men who gladly passed on their experiences. Some were field service engineers, others were in the home sales and export departments. To a man they were always objective about their products and were always more than willing to admit to design faults, and how the engineers corrected faults and improved the product. All were dedicated AEC men, trained in the ethos that customer service always came first. Harry Pick had numerous stories to relate about his time in the field; one Christmas Eve night he was changing an engine in a Regal coach at an operators in the Yorkshire Dales because it was rostered for service on Boxing Day.

Bob Fryars was written numerous papers about design and development of AEC components and engines were his speciality. Some of his writing is far to technical for my understanding, but one cannot but admire the attention to detail in the design of big end cap studs and nuts that line the split pin hole with the castellated nut at exactly the correct amount of torque imparted by a torque wrench. When he went to Leyland in the early 1970s the 500 Series project was already well under way and in serious trouble. In all the conversations and correspondence I had from both Bob and Harry no mention was ever made that the AEC engine stroke was a limiting factor to an engine’s performance and reliability. They readily admit that cooling and head gasket failings could be bothersome on some AEC engines.

One thing that all AEC and Leyland men had in common is that they never criticised the products of each others companies; they kept their counsel on those matters. They had plenty to say about the internal politics and personalities of the people at the very top of the Leyland organization, and you will be able to deduce at who those barbs are aimed.

As was written in Pat Kennet’s articles (and I met Pat on a few occasions), we must never forget how successful the constituents of Leyland Truck and Bus were in their glory years. I for one will not sit back and ignore the ill-founded comments of those who seek to denigrate the lifetime’s work of Harry Pick, Bob Fryars and thousands of their colleagues. I will always respond on their behalf.

Carryfast:

tyneside:
I would really like to know where CF worked to gain all his experience. He seems to be an expert on everything.

As far as cars go I suppose you could turn up in a brand new Roller and he would ask why you would buy a heap of junk like that!!

Ironically it’s me who’s making the case for the Rolls Eagle’s design over the L12/TL12 just as Scammell did.It’s the AEC fans who are saying that the Rolls is junk. :unamused: :laughing:
My job did bring me into a lot of contact with front line Scammell factory workers if that helps and if they thought the L12 and TL12 wasn’t good enough that’s good enough for me. :bulb:

Look at the maintenance costs I have posted for the AEC AV760 and RR Eagle 220… no further comments needed except the facts speak for themselves.

Scammell never designed or made a modern diesel engine. They only engines they made were petrol engines for their early heavy vehicles and power units for their Mechanical Horse and Scarab. Scammell’s engineering expertise was in designing specialist vehicles, not engines, so what they thought about the TL12 or L12 is really irrelevant and pointless.

Well my first attempt at driving an artic was in fact a Scammell Mechanical Horse when I first started for Baxters Road Services Ltd on Newcastle Quayside. It was a 1944. Reg, It had a 4 potter side vale engine with a gravitey fed fuel system, The radiator was a cast Iron lump in the cab Above the fuel tank, It was a starting handle job, With a knob sticking out of the near side of the cab which was the choke, One had to be very, very carefull when swinging the Handle because if one didnt get it right one would end up with a very painfull wrist, I was taught be the late Billy Shore who was the fitter in those good old days, The 50s I used to pull all kinds off stuff off Newcastle Docks along to Baxters Warehouse 10 tons quite often, Sadley when they were replaced with the Scarabs with the 4 potter Perkins engine and the Scammell Gate change gearbox, They were certainley not as good as the old Mechancil Horse IMO of course, I enjoyded driving these old Scammells The other one they was GPT 540 a 1946 Reg, Same Spec. The late Billy Moat who only drove these old Mechanical Horses was a treat to watch , He was the best Ive seen reversing into very tight spots, Of course in those good old long days when one enjoyed ones job, are long gone, Along with all the old back lanes on the Quayside where all the old warehouses were. But Im still here and enjoying a very large Single Malt before,I retire for the night,. And of course waking up feeling Stiff. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Regards Larry.

I remember the Scammell Scarab’s and Townsman’s from the Kings Cross rail yards when I was a kid out in the lorry with my Dad as we passed by on Caledonian Rd on the way up north or back home again. They had those little class 4 D400’s and TK’s that took those little trailers further afield, the Scammell couplings on them fascinated me.

On that note having had a little wander down memory lane, the thing that stood out the most was the amount of people around in those yards, there were workers everywhere, the same in the docks, now when you go to a rail yard or dock there’s hardly anyone around.

After reading the article again from Truck magazine that Dean posted it is amazing how big the commercial vehicle arm of BL was. In todays terms the company would be worth billions . It’s old ground that’s been covered many times on here with what if they had done this or that burt one thing no one’s given them credit for is that they fooled so many people not only here but worldwide . How could so many people be conned into buying substandard vehicles when there were far superior options available elsewhere … Or were they ■■?

Carryfast:

DEANB:
As for your collection of Motor and Auotcar magazines stating that Jaguar were in profit,they obviously dont mention that was
due to the money from the Leyland Truck division.

These two articles from 1986 and 87 are very intresting and confirm what Graham was saying.

If they are saying that JRT was only profitable after the ‘profits’ made by the truck division had been taken into account then why wouldn’t the reports I’ve read also have included BMC in that ?.
Why would the general consensus have said rightly that BMC was the loss making basket case with Issigonis being the main clprit with his joke designs.
To the point where they stupidly replaced the muppet with Triumph’s engineering director thereby leaving Triumph a drifting hulk rather than closing down BMC.The rest is history.
What I’m reading in your article is some of main culprits covering their own complicity with bs.
No one with any sense would have put the Triumph Acclaim and Rover SD1, let alone 820, as competitors to the BMW 5 series and lumbered Harry Webster with Issigonis’ problems leaving Triumph rudderless.
Let alone the idea that the AEC V8, Leyland 500 and the L12/TL12 actually contributed anything to Leyland Group other than massive costs and loss of customers.
Unless they were working for the foreign competition.
The same applies to the truck division.
While if Rover and Triumph supposedly weren’t profitable then why did Leyland trucks want them and keep them both as part of Leyland group long before the BMH merger and formation of BLMC.

Please supply your factual evidence, and credit your sources, for your statement that the L12 / TL12 cost the Leyland Group money and lost them custom. Please quote running costs for these engines, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, whole life costs, and evidence that these engines caused customers to refuse to buy vehicles with these engines. Finally, quantify how much money they “cost” the Leyland Group.

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Acceleration is maximum at T and BDC. Compression occurs between them. Here’s your homework: at what RPM does compression cause the same load in the conn rod as acceleration in an L12? Assume peak cyl pressure= 2x BMEP, and it occurs at 90 deg crank angle.

Don’t get your question…Nor can we even know what those inertial tensile loadings are without a piston and rod assembly weight and piston speed and that’s your pay grade to work out not mine. :confused:

This is the crux of it all. You are claiming to know the facts, without having any knowledge of their basis, while presuming that is the duty of others to know them, while claiming the right to speak against that knowledge, regardless. You are like a blind man, without the sense of taste, proclaiming the superiority of one type of chocolate over another. Everyone else can see what you are actually eating, but you continue on principle, disregarding advice that the bull’s hindquarters are directly above your dinner plate.

I think someone’sĺ Google finger could be working overtime searching for a response

Just need a few more parts to allow me start a rebuild…

dave docwra:
Just need a few more parts to allow me start a rebuild…

Probably the most reliable part of the Buffalo :wink:

Leyland Buffalo - (83ZP) - Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway Company:

Does anyone know why they changed the name of the top weight Leyland tractor at the time from Beaver to Buffalo , i could understand it if they sold them in the USA but that was never going to happen :wink:

Possibly something to do with the introduction of the Blueline Range being the Buffalo, Bison and Lynx, maybe they thought a name change all round was required for this range although the Octopus seemed to escape this. Franky.

Frankydobo:
Possibly something to do with the introduction of the Blueline Range being the Buffalo, Bison and Lynx, maybe they thought a name change all round was required for this range although the Octopus seemed to escape this. Franky.

The Leyland names always seem a bit confusing. So when the ‘new’ Blueline models were marketed what did they replace? Someone somewhere did reply on a thread that the Octopus ceased during much of the 70s.

The Leyland ‘Zoo’ names as they were termed first appeared in the 1920’s, Lion, Tiger, Bison, Buffalo and more and the Hippo, Rhino and Octopus added during the 30’s, the Octopus though was the named 8 wheeler for many years right up to when the 500 series engined models were released September 1975 replacing the original Ergo cabbed models and on until the T45 arrived at end of this decade, so not sure when they weren’t around during the 70’s. Franky.

Frankydobo:
The Leyland ‘Zoo’ names as they were termed first appeared in the 1920’s, Lion, Tiger, Bison, Buffalo and more and the Hippo, Rhino and Octopus added during the 30’s, the Octopus though was the named 8 wheeler for many years right up to when the 500 series engined models were released September 1975 replacing the original Ergo cabbed models and on until the T45 arrived at end of this decade, so not sure when they weren’t around during the 70’s. Franky.

Just to confuse matters more weren’t the 6 wheelers called Retrievers for a time

That’s right Ramone the 6x4 Retriever with the original Ergo cab, 20LRT and 22LRT (20 and 22 Ton). Where as the Reiver was the later G Cab Bathgate built 6x4. Quite confusing list of names but I suppose better than older systems of letters and numbers and probably why drivers gave many makes nicknames to avoid confusion. Franky.

I did not realise that the Octo was “dormant” for a while. When was this?

[zb]
anorak:
I did not realise that the Octo was “dormant” for a while. When was this?

I think until around 76