[zb]
anorak:
Oz and NZ people- do you have any experience of these?
commercialmotor.com/big-lorr … ineswere-g
Until you mentioned it I’d never heard of it. Amazing thing though…
syramax:
I can remember laughing at Japanese motorcycles ,then Japanese cars …one day they will !! get it right
I would have thought the same, yet after all these years they still have a long, long way to go to catch up with European middleweights and Euro and US heavyeights.
[zb]
anorak:syramax:
I can remember laughing at Japanese motorcycles ,then Japanese cars …one day they will !! get it rightThey would have done it by now. The basic designs could have been copied and adapted years ago, then it would have been a simple case of following trends, improving the specifications when necessary and treating reliability and cost of manufacture as the only important engineering criteria. This is what they have done with cars, motorbikes, tellies etc, but it has not happened with lorries. The Hino 8 wheeler is still regarded as nothing more than a basic workhorse, with a flimsy interior and dodgy control layout- at least according to the comments on here. If the Japs had done the same as as they did with cars, a Hino tractor unit would be seen as a more reliable Volvo, but it is not. Europe would be full of Hinos, Fusos, Nissans etc, and those makers would have products in every market segment, right up to 700bhp “supertrucks”.
Agreed. In numerous sectors of industry, Japanese is a by-word for the best you can get, yet in lorry and bus chassis their products are - at best - functional and cheap to run. Even their vans are ho-hum.
[zb]
anorak:
It would be too easy to say that the Japs are good at consumer products, but fall short when function and durability are paramount. This is not true, because their machine tools are popular, as are their diggers, site dumpers etc. Hitachi and Komatsu are not, as far as I am aware, regarded as cheap and nasty machines.
Agreed. On any major building site you’ll see those names.
[zb]
anorak:
I can think of two products which European makers seem to have the lead over the Japanese:
JCB still builds a competitive JCB. If you want a tracked machine- a “Hymac”- you would probably end up with an Hitachi or similar but, if a traditional JCB is required, the original seems to be best. The JCB products seem to have an image of innovation about them, whereas their competitors just make “me-too” products.
Land Rover still competes strongly with the Japs all over the World. While the Japanese 4x4s may be more reliable, Land Rover’s products seem to have the “premium” end of the market to themselves. Farmers will pay more for a Defender, than a Jap pickup, for its superior off-road and towing abilities. No amount of tinsel will make a Japanese 4x4 estate car as desirable as a Discovery or Range Rover, so LR is able to charge a huge premium for these vehicles.
For me, not so much. Over here backhoes (the proper name for JCBs) come in all makes and JCB doesn’t dominate(CASE, Caterpillar seem more common). As to 4WDs this is the land of Toyotas (everything from RAV4 through Hilux to Prado and LandBruiser), Nissans (Navara, Patrol), Mitsubishis (Triton, Pajero) and even Honda (CRV) and Suzuki (Sierra/ Jimny, Vitara). And more recently some decent Korean kit (Hyundai in particular). Of course the 4WD luxo-barge end of the market is predominantly Range Rover (like Britain, a Range Rover Sport is one of the most popular cars steaming past you on a motorway), BMW (X5) and Audi Q7 but they’re toys, not what the country runs on (whereas 80-series, 100-series Landcruisers and 75-series and Nissan Patrols are).
[zb]
anorak:
Could it be that the heavy lorry market is similar to those two? Clever, cutting-edge design, innovation and styling are essentials for a maximum weight tractor unit. Basic function and reliability are not enough to sell such vehicles at a good profit.
Possibly, but I think there’s more to it, though what I don’t know. Perhaps vans and wagons are a bit of a blind spot, as if the Japanese have spent so much time and effort focusing on other things they’ve forgotten key links in the chain (trucks to get the goods around, buses to move the workers around)?
At the end of the day if you turn up to work and the boss points to a Jap truck and says that’s yours now, then the choice is either drive it or hand in your cards. I’ve seen the Hino on the Mel Syd run, if I’m out quick I can usually get passed it between Bargo and Mittagong, no problem after that.
Jeff…
Jelliot:
At the end of the day if you turn up to work and the boss points to a Jap truck and says that’s yours now, then the choice is either drive it or hand in your cards. I’ve seen the Hino on the Mel Syd run, if I’m out quick I can usually get passed it between Bargo and Mittagong, no problem after that.Jeff…
Ye gods it’s a small world.
Yep, if it’s “drive that or clear orf” then Hobson’s Choice it is.
Steve
ParkRoyal2100:
newmercman:
I had a brand new SY283 (I think that’s what they were called) in 1988. F156WCW. It was a 280hp IIRC and it had a twin splitters in it.My memory tells me it had steering that was too light and totally lacking in feel, the brakes were bad, scary bad. The exhaust brake was as much use as mudflaps on a tortoise. The gearstick felt as if it was connected to the gearbox by rubber bands.
The cab was not designed for someone of European dimensions, no legroom, no headroom, the bunk was a ■■■■ take and the interior plastics made a FIAT look expensive. The quirky mirror positioning was a joke too.
You can probably tell, I wasn’t a fan and moaned so much that I got my old C reg F10 back.
I also had a go of the naturally aspirated 8x4 version, that was a totally different experience, a good solid tipper chassis that was surprisingly good on a tip.
Being passed by 3025 Mercs however revealed its shortcomings in the get up and go department.
My verdict…FAIL
Recently I managed an experiment of sorts .
On three separate days I drove 3 of the 23T GVW 6-leggers at the depot I work at back to the yard on the same route. All runs were with the wagons empty, all runs in daytime and all in reasonably similar traffic conditions. The “test” course (see google maps HERE) involves a stretch of dual carriageway that runs down a hill, over Woronora Bridge and up the other side (from East to West). On all three occasions I was not blocked or baulked by any other vehicles. The speed limit for the stretch of road used is 80km/h (50mph).
The three wagons “tested” in the order I happened to drive them were:
#1 2005 Merc 2328/ MB 8-speed range change synchro/ 11.3m tautliner;
#2 2013 Hino 500-series 1728/ Eaton 8-speed synchro/ 11m tautliner;
#3 2005 Merc 2328/ MB 8-speed range change synchro/ 11.5m flatbed.I did my darndest and made sure three things were constant - firstly that I wasn’t going to get baulked by traffic in front of me at any point (not as easy as it sounds), second that I was in 8th (top gear) and third I was doing exactly (as indicated) 80km/h at the bottom of the hill.
In top gear, doing 80km/h at the bottom of the hill…
#1 topped the hill at 75km/h in 8th (still in the green band on the tacho)#2 went down to 7th and topped the hill at just over 60km/h (and had the hill been longer would have slowed even more)
#3 romped up the hill in 8th at a constant 1750rpm and topped it at 80km/h.
The difference between #1 and #3, both being Merc 2328s of similar age and mileage, is probably just down to wind drag. A little of the difference between the Mercs and the Hino (#2) could be partly due to the Hino still being a bit tight, but all the same… What the figures don’t and can’t show is how lively the Mercs are to drive and how gutless the Hino feels (it has neither torque in its indicated “green band” nor power above it).
A bit further along the same road is an incline that made the Hino slow from 80 to 75 but that neither Merc even noticed (in fact #3 would have accelerated up it).
(Yes I know this “test” wouldn’t pass any sort of scientific scrutiny, but whatever. For me the results give a hint as to how a wagon shapes up in typical ordinary use. And besides, I enjoyed doing it.)
PS - I am no fan of the Merc ‘slap-over’ range change, but I expected a lot better of the Eaton synchro box in the Hino. It has long fore/aft throws (so long forward that 1st/ 5th feel out of reach), a notchy gate and an uneven feel across the gates. Perhaps that’s just Hino’s installation(?)
Good grief, this is dedication to the cause! Excellent work, Mr. Park Royal. An article in one of the rags, years ago, discovered on the dyno that well run-in trucks were making up about 10% more power and torque than quoted on the spec.sheet specification, so your guess that the Hino was lacking a few miles may be correct. However, the same test revealed that, at five years old, the engines had deteriorated to the extent that they could barely meet the original specification.
I Googled the specifications of those two vehicles:
autoweb.com.au/cms/A_53988/t … ticle.html
wa.ahg.com.au/Bunbury-Trucks/use … ne_Air.pdf
The Hino engine seems like a much older design, despite its being 8 years newer. It has a considerably lower torque peak and takes an extra 200rpm to make its 280bhp. Across the engine speed range, it is a significantly less powerful engine. To get similar performance, it would need much lower gearing.
This may correspond to the Euro/Jap differences at higher weights- those 20 litre+ n/a engines would have had lower torque peaks than the smaller turbo engines used by Euro and US lorry-builders in the 1990s. The Japanese market appears to have favoured low-torque, high speed engines for longer than the rest of the world.
It’s possible that Japanese automotive designs (all types) and manufacturing standards have stagnated in the last 10 years and the rest of the world has passed them and left them behind. Most European car manufacturers produce better appointed cars than Japanese models these days, and reliability is better in most instances too. The legendary Japanese reputation for reliability is somewhat false these days.
ParkRoyal2100:
For me, not so much. Over here backhoes (the proper name for JCBs) come in all makes and JCB doesn’t dominate(CASE, Caterpillar seem more common). As to 4WDs this is the land of Toyotas (everything from RAV4 through Hilux to Prado and LandBruiser), Nissans (Navara, Patrol), Mitsubishis (Triton, Pajero) and even Honda (CRV) and Suzuki (Sierra/ Jimny, Vitara). And more recently some decent Korean kit (Hyundai in particular). Of course the 4WD luxo-barge end of the market is predominantly Range Rover (like Britain, a Range Rover Sport is one of the most popular cars steaming past you on a motorway), BMW (X5) and Audi Q7 but they’re toys, not what the country runs on (whereas 80-series, 100-series Landcruisers and 75-series and Nissan Patrols are).[zb]
anorak:
Could it be that the heavy lorry market is similar to those two? Clever, cutting-edge design, innovation and styling are essentials for a maximum weight tractor unit. Basic function and reliability are not enough to sell such vehicles at a good profit.Possibly, but I think there’s more to it, though what I don’t know. Perhaps vans and wagons are a bit of a blind spot, as if the Japanese have spent so much time and effort focusing on other things they’ve forgotten key links in the chain (trucks to get the goods around, buses to move the workers around)?
The common factor seems to be that the Jap home market favours old-tech, cheap, reliable products, and that there is sufficient demand for these attributes alone in their export markets. Until recently, their UK market pickup trucks were very similar to the home-market product- indicators/wipers on the wrong side and poor corrosion protection. They sold on price and reliability. The same applied to their cars- from the 1970s through to the 1990s, they were noted for over-light controls, mediocre handling and plasticky interiors. Does this sound familiar, Hino drivers? Since then, they have started doing some of the development work in Europe. The base engineering may be the same as the Japanese market vehicle, but the specification is finished in Europe, to suit European “tastes”. Nowadays, they compete strongly with the locals.
Those monster engines seem to have vanished from the ranges of Japanese lorries. They all seem to be advertising Euro 5-compliant turbo sixes now. Maybe this is the start of their attempt to crack the world truck market- the reason they lagged before, is that they simply did not try to adapt their designs to local requirements. While this might not have been a problem in pickup trucks and diggers, up to a point, the truck market is more fussy and focussed.
I found this 1980 Isuzu catalogue. Oddly enough, their maximum-weight tractors only had a 17 litre V10, then. The 20 and 30 litre models must have come later.
isuzugeek.org/media/scans/icbtn.pdf
Keep it coming chaps- these far eastern oddities are well-worth some discussion.
Bit of figjam going on there much like other sales brochures. I would like to know what that machine in the photo about a 1/3 of the way through is for looks like some kind of early robotic arm with a center punch on the end. What’s it going to do the top the hood of that car ■■?
Jeff…
Jelliot:
Bit of figjam going on there much like other sales brochures. I would like to know what that machine in the photo about a 1/3 of the way through is for looks like some kind of early robotic arm with a center punch on the end. What’s it going to do the top the hood of that car ■■?Jeff…
It is a coordinate measuring machine. He touches it down on the surface and it records the position of the sensor. He will do it in enough places all over the car, to fully-define the shape, so that they can do drawings for the toolmaker. In that way, the production presswork matches the stylist’s ■■■■■■■■■ accurately. On that occasion, he was dreaming about Austin Allegros.
[zb]
anorak:
Good grief, this is dedication to the cause! Excellent work, Mr. Park Royal. An article in one of the rags, years ago, discovered on the dyno that well run-in trucks were making up about 10% more power and torque than quoted on the spec.sheet specification, so your guess that the Hino was lacking a few miles may be correct. However, the same test revealed that, at five years old, the engines had deteriorated to the extent that they could barely meet the original specification.
We aim to please 
TBH it was just an attempt to quantify that “seat of your pants” feeling and as it happened I managed to log all three vehicles on a similar run. IIRC Truck magazine back in the 80s (when I used to buy it - not just because I was in the game but because it was wonderfully well-written) used to do similar but doubtless much more professionally done tests with the wagons they trialled, for instance fully loaded going up over the M62 (if my memory isn’t totally shot they also used to stop at the top of Scammonden and watch the head temp guage).
[zb]
anorak:
I Googled the specifications of those two vehicles:autoweb.com.au/cms/A_53988/t … ticle.html
wa.ahg.com.au/Bunbury-Trucks/use … ne_Air.pdfThe Hino engine seems like a much older design, despite its being 8 years newer. It has a considerably lower torque peak and takes an extra 200rpm to make its 280bhp. Across the engine speed range, it is a significantly less powerful engine. To get similar performance, it would need much lower gearing.
This may correspond to the Euro/Jap differences at higher weights- those 20 litre+ n/a engines would have had lower torque peaks than the smaller turbo engines used by Euro and US lorry-builders in the 1990s. The Japanese market appears to have favoured low-torque, high speed engines for longer than the rest of the world.
Thanks for those links, very informative. I did a bit more digging and managed to find graphs of torque and peak power outputs for the Merc OM 906 LA. You can clearly see the difference between it and the hino and I do not doubt for a minute that the Merc makes 1/3rd or more torque over the Hino. And for me, never mind (claimed) peak power, it’s torque that makes the difference between something you can work with all day every day and a slug you end up detesting.
[zb]
anorak:
The common factor seems to be that the Jap home market favours old-tech, cheap, reliable products, and that there is sufficient demand for these attributes alone in their export markets. Until recently, their UK market pickup trucks were very similar to the home-market product- indicators/wipers on the wrong side and poor corrosion protection. They sold on price and reliability. …They all seem to be advertising Euro 5-compliant turbo sixes now. Maybe this is the start of their attempt to crack the world truck market- the reason they lagged before, is that they simply did not try to adapt their designs to local requirements.
I know nothing of the Jap home market so can’t comment (except to point out that there is a striking resemblance between it and the British lorry market of the 70s and 80s - it seems to me that in both cases the domestic manufacturers were/ are saying “like it or lump it”. Plus the fact that the Japanese still AFAIK impose import tariffs [I may be wrong about this], which means much reduced international competition, and thus no impetus to lift their game). Reliability is another thing altogether - I get the impression it’s relative to each market, thus what’s considered “reliable” in Japan may not apply to (say) Britain. Nonetheless Jap wagons are cheap(er) to buy and since accountants seems to dictate what goes in most transport ops these days, cheap(er) up front costs count for a lot (especially if based on a 3- or 5-year vehicle turnover). So while Euro marques are represented in the light and middleweight truck market here (and NZ I presume) the fact is they command a premium so Isuzu, Hino and Fuso dominate. That said, today I passed my first ever Hyundai truck (it was going the other way but at a guess about 8T GVW) - if the pattern in passenger cars and “soft roaders” seen here in Oz is repeated the Japanese truck makers had better lift their game, fast.
As to Jap truck makers offering more middle-of-the-road I6s instead of the more outlandish stuff, their 6s have been here longer than I have. On top of that nearly all new middleweight and heavyweights (Isuzu and Hino particularly) are badged as Euro-5 compliant (hence all the hoopla with not being able to shut the thing down at times when its something-something-recirculation-something is doing something) and several older wagons sport Euro-4 badges.
As I said earlier, I have been spoiled slightly by being brought up on and used to Euro trucks, so I am happy to admit I am a bit jaundiced about Japanese wagons. They do have some redeeming features, though apart from decent cross-cab access and thier controls being a bit less “remote” in some ways I’m [zb]ed if I can remember what they are 
Get onto www.Xtrucking.com and you will see loads of Japanese motors working at top weights in NZ and some smart tackle among them they must be doing something right when there is as many on their roads. Eddie.
I saw a nice looking 6 wheeler tautliner today getting round town, factory body as well carrying a Fuzo badge on the front. By the look of the tires it was loaded but it was managing very well to keep up with the traffic, unlike some of the older models.
Jeff…
erfguy:
Get onto Xtrucking.com and you will see loads of Japanese motors working at top weights in NZ and some smart tackle among them they must be doing something right when there is as many on their roads. Eddie.
Are they well-liked in NZ, then?
During my rifling through the internet, I saw some statistics- at least one of the Japanese lorry builders was about as big as Daimler Benz, interms of numbers built per annum. This would explain why they have not bothered to update their engines and cabs to compete with the Europeans- they had sufficient sales in Asia. Why bother to engineer a completely different vehicle, then build up a sales/service network in Europe, when the sales it would generate would only be a share of that market? I reckon this will change over the coming decades. China will be able to flood Asia (and Africa, and Russia) with cheap, functional vehicles. If they are to maintain anything like their present production volumes, the Japs will have to pull their fingers out. I predict that they will consider it worthwhile to enter the European and US markets- properly, with a full range of competitive products. While a Lexus car is now considered to be as good as a Mercedes, a Hino tractor unit will become an equal competitor of Volvo. I may be wrong…
The Smiths Electric Vehicle plant is just around the corner from where I live. There is always a line of new TNT 7.5 tonnes waiting to be converted from diesel to electric. Up till a couple of years ago it was mostly IVECO but now it is 100% Japanese. Managed to get a few photos but was starting to get some dirty looks from the security man !!
tyneside:
The Smiths Electric Vehicle plant is just around the corner from where I live. There is always a line of new TNT 7.5 tonnes waiting to be converted from diesel to electric. Up till a couple of years ago it was mostly IVECO but now it is 100% Japanese. Managed to get a few photos but was starting to get some dirty looks from the security man !!
Wow 
, electric (battery) powered wagons. Now there’s a thing. Anyone driven one? Torque won’t be a problem but what’s the range/ duration like? Regenerative braking I hope(?)
The Detroit Diesel DD range is going to be the World Engine for all Daimler AG trucks, so as well as Freightliner and Mercedes Benz, it will also be found down under in Western Star and Mitsubishi Fuso, who are the market leader in Asia, as are MB and Freightliner in their respective markets ( or they were when I worked at MB)
So those Jap lorries may be worth a shot in the near future…
Alright, so I’m being picky. After any day in a Hino it always annoys me that the grab handle to get into the [zb] thing can’t be reached without already having one foot on the bottom step. No, I’m not a dwarf, I’m 5’8" (in the old money), and besides the grab handles on the Mercs reach almost to the bottom of the door aperture. Having the handles so high also means it fails the “three points of contact” test, which is what the OH&S/ WorkCover manuals over here insist you should use.
Anyone know if hino have anounced a euro6 model yet.
Not seen many new ones last few years.