Gardner ENGINES

[zb_anorak]

newmercman:
There are a few companies that are specialising in the bypassing of these ridiculous technologies

http://www.pittsburghpower.com/

http://www.pdidiesel.com/

They both have devices that plug into the standard ECM and take out all the emissions setings, both also do a complete EGR/ACERT delete which involves new heads/manifolds/turbos etc

I wonder if any of this goes on in Europe? I must confess, I find it hard to believe that small firms can beat the manufacturers at their own game, regarding power and fuel consumption, without causing problems in other areas. What effect do these modifications have on the long-term durability of the engines? Circumventing the emissions nonsense is another matter, of course- the manufacturers would not wish to be involved with law-breaking. I am all in favour of it, though!

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

newmercman:
There are a few companies that are specialising in the bypassing of these ridiculous technologies

http://www.pittsburghpower.com/

http://www.pdidiesel.com/

They both have devices that plug into the standard ECM and take out all the emissions setings, both also do a complete EGR/ACERT delete which involves new heads/manifolds/turbos etc

I wonder if any of this goes on in Europe? I must confess, I find it hard to believe that small firms can beat the manufacturers at their own game, regarding power and fuel consumption, without causing problems in other areas. What effect do these modifications have on the long-term durability of the engines? Circumventing the emissions nonsense is another matter, of course- the manufacturers would not wish to be involved with law-breaking. I am all in favour of it, though!

I think there’ a big difference between the idea of the arguable issue of overstressing the old Gardner design,by arguing with Hugh Gardner’s obvious premise,that his engines were running as he’d designed them,compared to strangling an engine to the point where it can’t breath properly so it’s actually operating below the type of design performance parameters,than it would be if ‘someone’ (rightly) just decides to chuck all the emissions bs in the nearest skip and put the thing back together in the way it was originally designed for.

So for me it would be the full fat latter of those options.So those modern day yank rebels have found some support in the unlikeliest place of the Gardner engine topic.

[cav551]

The Pittsburg Power website is extremely informative. What is particularly interesting is their identification of various engines’ shortcomings and the number of quite significant problems and manufacturer’s attempts at fixes. Their modifications appear to solve many of the problems with these American engines, but their business is aimed at owner operators who have spent their hard-earned on these mods and are consequently prepared to put into practice the driving technique necessary to get the best results. Fleet drivers with no financial interest in the vehicle, will not necessarily follow the routine, which must be why the engine manufacturers limit the output of their products to levels they can withstand when given a certain amount of abuse.

The average US vehicle cab is stuffed full of gauges monitoring just about everything, for instance a conversation I had with Mick Gould some years ago about his recently uprated 600 ■■■■■■■ wrecker, revealed that at full power one had to monitor the diff temperatures quite carefully to avoid problems.

To bring this relevant to Gardner, it reveals the number of problems apparent with competitors’ engines over a long time period. Going back as far as the 1930s practically all Gardner’s rivals produced modification after modification relating to head gasket sealing; something which Gardner got right from day one.

[windrush]

cav551:
To bring this relevant to Gardner, it reveals the number of problems apparent with competitors’ engines over a long time period. Going back as far as the 1930s practically all Gardner’s rivals produced modification after modification relating to head gasket sealing; something which Gardner got right from day one.

And head gasket sealing was the ‘Achilles Heel’ in many engines, even into the 1980’s and possibly beyond. AEC, Leyland, BMC and many more suffered problems due mostly to having to seal both water and compression whereas Gardner, Bedford (later), Rolls Royce etc used rubber or fibre seals and dowells to take care of the cooling side of things, leaving the head gasket to just retain the cylinder pressure. Far more reliable in service.

Pete.

[newmercman]

PDI make one especially for you Carryfast, a C16 CAT with triple turbos, 2000hp at the flywheel, fastest truck between fuel stops in the World

There is some very innovative stuff going on over here lately, all in the name of reliability and fuel economy, something the manufacturers can no longer guarantee The upside of it all is that as the engines are strangled with emission BS, they produce some very good numbers when they’re un-castrated, decent air flow in and out alone can easily bring an extra 100hp and the extra efficiency (mpg) that comes with that

There’s a new process that has come from racing technology that is bringing remarkable results. It involves micro polishing all the surfaces in the engine that come into contact with oil, the surfaces are then coated with a secret formula (can’t remember what, that’s why it’s secret ) it basically removes most of the friction (wasted energy) and theoretically will improve the life of the components as well as bring increased efficiency (power and mpg) People that have rebuilt engines using this have seen almost zero wear metals in their oil samples, even the first ones after the rebuild, which are usually full of contaminents. They also do wheel bearings, transmissions and differentials, the savings reported so far are amazing. you can find out more here http://www.microblueracing.com/news-updates-microblue-trucking.html if you’re interested.

Another area that is under the spot light are cooling systems, because of the heat generated by all the emissions junk, much larger capacity cooling systems are being used, they’re under considerable pressure too so that they have a higher boil point. There’s a waterless coolant that eliminates the need for pressure in the system, it has a much higher boil point too, so with a resistor you can raise the point where the fan comes on and put higher temperature thermostats in and benefit from the better combustion from the higher temperatures and still protect your engine better than a water/glycol based coolant.

All of this is coming from little back street garages and blokes with an idea, the engineers at the manufacturers are too busy with all the save the planet nonsense to come up with something that would actually make their engines better

[zb_anorak]

newmercman:
Another area that is under the spot light are cooling systems, because of the heat generated by all the emissions junk, much larger capacity cooling systems are being used, they’re under considerable pressure too so that they have a higher boil point. There’s a waterless coolant that eliminates the need for pressure in the system, it has a much higher boil point too, so with a resistor you can raise the point where the fan comes on and put higher temperature thermostats in and benefit from the better combustion from the higher temperatures and still protect your engine better than a water/glycol based coolant.

All of this is coming from little back street garages and blokes with an idea, the engineers at the manufacturers are too busy with all the save the planet nonsense to come up with something that would actually make their engines better

Higher combustion temps mean more NOx, so they are out for production engines. In the eighties, there was talk of ceramic-faced combustion chambers and no cooling system at all. At the time, I expected this to come to fruition eventually, but the NOx nonsense killed it.

On the subject of coolant, the boiling point increases with the concentration of glycol, whose boiling point is 197 deg. C. Simply use this without water, if you want to run hot. Significantly higher temperatures may cause problems elsewhere, if the engine was designed to run at 120-ish coolant temperature. I reckon, anyway. The other thing you can do is run the coolant at higher pressure. I forget the typical running pressures of engines, but I think they are of the order of one bar, which could easily be increased. The limiting factor is always that the original design is as it is, so meddling with one parameter or another is asking for trouble. Good luck to the modifiers, though. If the hands of the big firms are tied, the dabblers are the only people left trying to improve things.

[lawrence_dunbar]

I had a Foden Artic S36 with a Leyland 680 PP, It had a Kaizor Shutter Fitted which IMO, Was first class worked a treat, Can anyone tell me if they were fitted to the Gardner Engined Fodens of that era, Regards Larry.

[windrush]

Lawrence Dunbar:
I had a Foden Artic S36 with a Leyland 680 PP, It had a Kaizor Shutter Fitted which IMO, Was first class worked a treat, Can anyone tell me if they were fitted to the Gardner Engined Fodens of that era, Regards Larry.

Never seen a Gardner in a Foden with one Larry, the LXB engined ones had the oil cooler in front of the rad so there wouldn’t have been room anyway.

Pete.

[bewick]

Lawrence Dunbar:
I had a Foden Artic S36 with a Leyland 680 PP, It had a Kaizor Shutter Fitted which IMO, Was first class worked a treat, Can anyone tell me if they were fitted to the Gardner Engined Fodens of that era, Regards Larry.

Good technical question to-night Larry,we didn’t run any Fodens but the first 3 new Atki Borderers I bought I had them fitted with the Kysor Rad shutter.They were in closed positon probably 99% of the time and only opened,briefly, at the top of grades on the M/way or at the top of a steep bank.Although we never had any trouble with ours,I was told that some radiators were split open because of the sheer pull of the fan with the shutter closed ! I switched to Dynair fans which I thought was a far better idea and ,of course, these fans became standard fitment to all engines in later years,but forsure,Thee and me were there at the frontiers of Truck technology all those years ago eh ! Heres a shot of the 2nd new Borderer I got in '72 which clearly shows the Kysor blind in closed posotion.Cheers Dennis.

[windrush]

When the Roller in my Foden finally expired they found me one (in worse condition than the old one!) in a breakers out of a Sed Ak and that had a Dynair fitted. Well the first load that I did with it was dust to South Staffs Water at Tipton and it was a really hot dry day. I pulled on site and the foreman came across to tell me where to tip just as the Dynair cut in, he disappeared in a cloud of dust and when he finally stopped choking gave me such a rollicking and tried to ban me from any of their sites! Took a bit of persuading but he did see the funny side eventually though.

Pete.

[saviem]

Evening all, now its getting interesting, sort of going backwards to answer some of he comments,

Larry, our family had an S36, 680 Leyland, that had a Kysor shuter, purchased second hand, (and I cannot remember the original owner). But someone who obviously had specified his vehicles well. We thought it a real “powerhouse”, and the vehicle was a one driver machine, but what a goer! I would have thought that such a shutter would have produced better operating temperature if fitted to a Gardner, but how to overcome the oil cooler? someone must have retro fitted one to some chassis. Dennis, (Bewick), I seem to recall fitted shutters to some of his Seddons, but I do`nt think that they were Kysors, or Gardner powered. Perhaps he could enlighten us?

Mark those are really interesting points from across the Atlantic. That “magic coating”, for wearing parts, was, ( If my memory is correct), marketed here as “Slick 50”, or some similar name, in the 80s. The procedure was to firstly drain, then flush both engine and gearbox, add the requsite quantity of “the potion”, then refill with lubricant. The idea being that the (silicon base)? would coat the wearing parts, and promote long life!

I recall that operational trials were carried out, either under the scruitiny of Motor Transport, (John Aldridge)■■ or the IRTE magazine. The operator was an own account one from the West Country, running drawbar Seddon 400s, (but the little grey cells do not recall the name, although I can recall the photograph that fronted the article, (boy I now realise that I am ageing)!!!

I seem to recall that driving two comparative lorries, one treated, one untreated, and another that had the gearbox treated, there were real differences in operation, favouring the "treated " lorry in each case.

Anybody have hands on experience, or can add more detail??

I presume that the grand daddy of all these treatments was STP??

cav551,and windrush, quite rightly cite the advantages that Gardner designs had over their competitors particularly in the area of cylinder head design. I seem to recall that one of the areas of concern that Brian Veale of Shell Mex BP had to address was the difficulty of replacing 7.7 AEC head gaskets, and water pumps, as both failed on a regular basis. The SM, BP modification being an alteration to the access via the cab, and cab front panel. Apparantly the standard “factory” access being somewhat “tight”!

I can identify with cav551s comment about US insrumentation. Many of the tractors that I imported had the full VIT interior package, chrome steering column, pedal arms, gearstick(s), buton back naugahyde trim, ( a sort of gloss plastic, mainly in abbattoir scarlet Oxblood, or Funeral parlour deep blue)!!! (not to be sat in following a night on Banks`s mild, or any other heavy beer)!! Plus of course a myriad of indistinguishable small gauges covering every intimate function of the vehicle, whether you needed to know, or not! Now as a source of paranoid panic, these little gems have never been beaten. Picture this, you are cruising along at great velocity, the long bonnet out ahead, then you glance down, and of course your eye catches one needle. It may be doing a little dance, or it may look odd…and of course you have never noted this needle before!!! The enjoyable day is disrupted, whats wrong■■? Now, in hindsight I can say, probably nothing!!!. Pyrometers, front diff temperature, second diff temperature, oil flow, temperature, pressure, …the dials of nightmares, you become fixated upon impending doom…not the fact that it was probably the antics of old electrics, on an old vehicle!!

I shall away to my “theraputic” Bollinger, and see if it can repair my little grey cells, enough to remember the correct name for that product, and more importantly the operators name!!

One final thought, for us lorry men to ponder, why is it that some of the finest commercial vehicle, and road transport engineers, have a background in Bus engineering■■? An interesting point is it not!!

Bon nuit mes braves, Cheerio for now.

[newmercman]

Saviem, you’re dead right about instrumentation, my Peterbilt has a myriad of dials and they all tell a story, they are also dripping in chrome and look good, but they do help. I had a gearbox oil cooler take a dump on me, I spotted it almost right away due to my gearbox temperature dial suddenly climbing on the level, it never usually climbs unless the old girl is pulling hard up a long hill. The Pyrometer and the Boost Gauge are useful for economical driving too, the object being to keep both needles as low as possible. The fuel pressure gauge is also a good indication for a filter change, sometimes you take on a load of crappy fuel and it clogs them prematurely and in the weird and wacky world of the diesel engine, fuel starvation actually increases fuel use, so if you know how to read the dials, they can be useful tools.

Slick 50 was eventually banned out of existence due to it damaging internal components long term, this new thing from the good 'ol boys of NASCAR is not just a treatment, it is the micro polishing combined with a teflon type coating that allows the oil to do its job properly that brings the benefits. As you know, any bearing has a film of oil between the metal parts, letting that oil flow is the key to this process.

STP was more of an oil thickener, which is the last thing you want as the increased oil churn helps neither power or economy, useful if you’ve got a tired engine though as it lowers oil consumption through blow by.

[zb] I am led to believe, by those that should know, that you should never run coolant in anything other than a 50/50 mix of water (distilled) and Glycol, if you are going to change the mixture it should always be the water that is increased rather than the Glycol.

The thing with increasing the pressure (and raising the boiling point) is the extra pressure only comes from working the water pump harder, thereby increasing the parasitic losses of the engine, which will help neither power or economy. The waterless coolant runs without any pressure and the operating temperatures and fan on parameters are only changed by 10-15deg, not a huge difference, but every little helps, if you’ve made all the other modifications then it would make sense. It is a lifetime coolant too, so you could just leave things as they are and settle for the better protection it is claimed to offer. Have a look for yourself at http://www.evanscooling.com/ see what you think.

[cav551]

In simple terms I suppose you could answer the question of why so many good engineers? - in two words: heat cycling.

Heavy loadings of passengers with full throttle dashes, followed by standing at bus stops to load, repeated over and over again causes quite substantial stress on components due to heating and cooling. Brakes, transmissions and engines all work harder in a bus than in a goods vehicle so they give more trouble. For example It used to be quite common to reline brakes on one corner only, because the linings might only last a few weeks. The opportunity to reveal a vehicle’s faults happens much more quickly with a bus.

Bus companies tend to have much larger fleets than the average haulage company so the incentive, experience and facilities for the engineering side to identify, and solve problems are magnified. The engineers commanded greater respect within the company and hence larger budgets were allocated, which were spent on training, research and equipment. The position of Engineering Manager or Fleet Engineer was an important one in the company and one that scarcely existed outside passenger transport. He would not only have a string of letters after his name, but he would have started life sweeping the floor and be known and possibly head-hunted by companies from neighbouring or remote parts of the country. He would have a string of contacts in other companies from whom he could ‘borrow’ some elusive component. He would be one step away from being : “T’ main man” - The General Manager of a bus company, who would be a significant local personality. It would be G.W. Hayter, G.G. Hilditch or C.W. Baroth, General Manager in gold leaf on every vehicle.

Comparatively few haulage companies undertook the extent of overhauls that were common in the bus industry. There were many bus companies with dedicated overhaul and sometimes manufacturing works. Midland Red even made their own engines. Bus companies retained specialist sections like fuel injection workshops long after the practice had died out in the haulage sector.

But the bus fraternity always had one flaw which made it like the curate’s egg - good in parts; ‘Bus Company Mentality’
The nature of bus services being a morning and evening rush hour with a lull during the middle of the day, allied to none of the vehicles normally straying more than a few miles from home, leads to a system which simply must get the vehicle out of the door for the afternoon ‘run out’. So temporary repairs these days become the way of things and these then become permanent repairs, because if the vehicle fails, it is after, all only just round the corner, it’s not as if it is several hundred miles away. There is no need to call out some garage in the Highlands to attend to the failure when a fitter can take out a replacement relief bus and attend to the casualty.

[paul_john]

Some really good posts, common sense and informative.

[bassman]

Hi,All,

On the subject of Kysor rad shutters. In the late 70,s Rugby Cement fitted them to a batch of Gardner LX engined trucks . IIRC there wasn,t a noticeable improvement in power but it certainly improved the output of the heater, and to me that was more important in winter than power .

Cheers Bassman

[retired_old_fart]

A suitably-sized sheet of cardboard, painted matt black so the boss didn’t notice it, served a similar purpose on the 150 Gardner-powered Atki 8 wheeler. Can’t say it did anything for the power or the heater output, but it had a phsycological effect on a freezing young driver!

[bewick]

In reply to “Saviem” regarding Kysor/Dynair fitments,I had the first 3 new Borderers ( 2x205’s 1x220) fitted with Kysor shutters at Scotts of Penrith the supplying dealer.I then decided that the Dynair fan would be a “kinder” way to improve the performance of the ■■■■■■■ engine,however,we then had the Dynairs fitted by the,then,supplier a firm from Eston Grange,Tees side, who came to our workshop when we got the motor new.We did fit the Dynair to the secondhand Atkis as well.The Borderers and “A” series ERF’s presented no problem but the 220 engined Seddon 32/4 had to have spacers fitted to off-set the grille as the longer nose on the Dynair needed more clearance than was available on the Seddon.There was no doubt that the Dynair improved the performance of the ■■■■■■■ and,of course,there was a bit less noise in the cab!! except when the fan"came in" of course,then you woke up with a jolt!!!Regarding the Gardner,and correct me if I’m wrong but IIRC would our Sed/Atk 180LXB’s have had a Dynair fan of some sort fitted by the factory from new ?.On the subject of Oil additives I recall trialing some stuff in a couple of F88 gearboxes in the '70’s and by chance we had to have one of the boxes out,well this ■■■■ had coated the inside of the case with what I could only describe as “Toffee apple” treacle,what a ■■■■■■■ mess !! It transpired that this additive was sold by a South African with a “questionable” grasp of honest business methods and I recall a pal of mine saying that this South African litrally kept a light aircraft fuelled and ready to make an immediate exit from “these shores” as and when the various authourities rumbled him !! Interesting days ! Cheers Dennis.

[bewick]

If you look closely at the fron’t of this Seddon you can see the grille is “stood off” with spacers to accomodate the Dynair fan.

[harry_gill]

Bewick:
If you look closely at the fron’t of this Seddon you can see the grille is “stood off” with spacers to accomodate the Dynair fan.

hiya,
Loved these Seddons Dennis but only drove them with the Roller engines
flying machines they was too.
thanks harry, long retired.

[saviem]

Afternoon all, Harry, you are right about the Seddon Rolls being a flyer, that 10speed Fuller made them really nice to drive. The only downside that I can remember was the “bouncey” accelerator,…humm, humm, Roar, roar, (if you get my drift)! Made even the most sedate driver sound like a cowboy!!!

The Motor show sleeper tractor was sold by my pal Chris Kelly to our pal, the late Pat Blackburn, (Chambers and Cook, Birmingham), but in operation the lack of quality showed through, and it destroyed itself many times over! Sad really, but a Seddon was never as good as an Atkinson, (or a Foden)!!

Happy days, they were, Cheerio for now.