Gardner ENGINES

Solly:

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
it was the domestic customer base that was a large contributor to the downfall of the British truck manufacturing industry.

No it wasn’t.

L. GARDNER AND SONS LIMITED: THE HISTORY OF A BRITISH INDUSTRIAL FIRM. A STUDY WITH SPECIAL REFERENCE TO MARKETS,
WORKPLACE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS, AND MANUFACTURING ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY, 1955 — 1986

Analysed from the perspective of markets and workplace industrial relations, it was found that the Gardner family managers coped reasonably well with most of the macroenvironmental shifts that occurred between 1955 and 1975. However, two serious errors were made: the first, which caused a short-term loss of revenue and a long-term loss of market leadership, was a result of negligence, the second stemmed from an outdated authoritarian approach to industrial relations that resulted in intense discord in the workplace, alleviated only after the management was replaced by a more astute and enlightened regime.
A third error occurred after Gardner was sold to Hawker Siddeley, a large British industrial group, in 1977. Based on a perception that Gardner’s plant was outdated, the new owners invested in expensive computer controlled manufacturing systems, and increased the volume of subcontracted components, strategies that caused disruptions to production schedules, eroded quality standards, and failed to improve output. As a result, Gardner’s superlative reputation for reliability and service became tarnished and its market share plummeted. In 1986, when mounting trading losses became unacceptable, the firm was sold-on to a competitor and production effectively
ceased.
This thesis asserts that, as a family firm, Gardner traded profitably and provided incomes for thousands of employees for more than a century. Moreover, the sale to Hawker Siddeley conferred wealth on the family shareholders and financial security on their descendents. Gardner was not therefore, a failure either between 1898 and 1955, or before 1978.

Sorry CF, but the history books do not support your assertion that it was the “Customers” that contributed to the downfall of L Gardner & Sons.

I think the actual failure date of 1978 is about right although the seeds were planted long before that and there’s not much point in having all the gear and no idea.CNC machinery is used to date up to the levels of F1 engineering so there’s no way that anyone could possibly say that CNC lathes or mills etc would turn out sub standard components compared to manually controlled ones and the same applies in regards to the British sub contract engineering base which has always been some of the best in the world which is how our aircraft industry beat the Germans in WW2.

I think it was more the fact that those machines and subbies were still employed on turning out Gardner 240/265 engines in the late 1970’s/early 1980’s because that was what the British customer base was still stuck in the mindset of using. :bulb: :open_mouth:

In a world where things like the DAF 2800/3300/Volvo F10/12/Mercs and 6 and 8 cylinder Scanias were already roaming the rest of the continent and scandinavia in large numbers and just waiting to take over here as soon as the British customers got their act together and caught up with the thinking of the engineers,as opposed to the British truck buyers/operators.It’s that bit that doesn’t seem to have been factored into that report. :bulb:

Hi, Again,

I,m sorry folks but I think we are going to have to have a meeting with Stobarts ,Norbert Dressingtable, Willi Betz, Jack Meacher and quite a few others to tell them where they have gone wrong.
We must explain to them that they have bought the wrong trucks , the one’s they have haven’t helped them become very successful and employ thousands and make millions. Now if??

Cheers Bassman

Carryfast:

kr79:
The Dutch now there is a nation known for running high power trucks. :open_mouth:

This one isn’t exactly short of power and if he thought that he could make more money by running it with an old 240 Gardner in it I’m sure he could get one out of a Chinese junk for peanuts. :wink: :laughing:

truck-photos.net/picture/number2026.asp

I was talking in general not isolated cases. I suppouse this is the danger of the net if you dig deep enough you can find something to support your arguement even if you talk ■■■■■■

Carryfast:
In a world where things like the DAF 2800/3300/Volvo F10/12/Mercs and 6 and 8 cylinder Scanias were already roaming the rest of the continent and scandinavia in large numbers and just waiting to take over here as soon as the British customers got their act together and caught up with the thinking of the engineers,as opposed to the British truck buyers/operators.It’s that bit that doesn’t seem to have been factored into that report. :bulb:

Here’s an idea cf- why don’t you email the University to tell them what was missed out of the thesis? Then post their reply on here.

kr79:

Carryfast:

kr79:
The Dutch now there is a nation known for running high power trucks. :open_mouth:

This one isn’t exactly short of power and if he thought that he could make more money by running it with an old 240 Gardner in it I’m sure he could get one out of a Chinese junk for peanuts. :wink: :laughing:

truck-photos.net/picture/number2026.asp

I was talking in general not isolated cases. I suppouse this is the danger of the net if you dig deep enough you can find something to support your arguement even if you talk [zb].

It’s not zb because what I’m saying is actually what happened. :unamused:
I think you missed my point that what might have been very average power to weight ratios running at Euro or Scandinavian weights became much better ones when the same trucks were used at British weights.In just the same way,as I’ve said,increasing power/torque to weight ratios is no different to running any given truck with a lighter load.Which common sense says reduces fuel consumption and increases average speed.Which is why Volvo and Scania are now going to all the trouble of making 600-700 + hp wagons to run at 60 t instead of 500 hp or less ones. :bulb:

CF…please…you keep accusing the customers of that time of being backward thinking. Gardner powered chassis is what the operators like Bewick wanted. That was their preference as it suited their operations…plus they considered there was nothing better at the time. From what we gather. The problem that Bewick et al faced was the availability of their preferred chassis spec. That is the fault of the manufacturer…not the customer. Loyalty to a brand can be stretched, but… only so far… especially when it affects your business.

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
In a world where things like the DAF 2800/3300/Volvo F10/12/Mercs and 6 and 8 cylinder Scanias were already roaming the rest of the continent and scandinavia in large numbers and just waiting to take over here as soon as the British customers got their act together and caught up with the thinking of the engineers,as opposed to the British truck buyers/operators.It’s that bit that doesn’t seem to have been factored into that report. :bulb:

Here’s an idea cf- why don’t you email the University to tell them what was missed out of the thesis? Then post their reply on here.

I’m sure that if everyone on here is open minded enough to find and read their observations then they are probably also able to do that in regards to everything which has been said here. :bulb: :wink:

Solly:
CF…please…you keep accusing the customers of that time of being backward thinking. Gardner powered chassis is what the operators like Bewick wanted. That was their preference as it suited their operations…plus they considered there was nothing better at the time. From what we gather. The problem that Bewick et al faced was the availability of their preferred chassis spec. That is the fault of the manufacturer…not the customer. Loyalty to a brand can be stretched, but… only so far… especially when it affects your business.

Within that issue you need to factor in the possibility that the manufacturers were just trying to tell them as nicely as possible to dump the Gardner idea and get into the real world.Whereas what they should have said was sorry no Gardner option at all we’ve deleted it so it’s 320 + ■■■■■■■ take it or leave it on the basis that at that point they had nothing to lose and possibly everything to gain by doing that. :bulb:

Why are there plenty of Dutch operators running 340 and 360s on international work probaly more than any other nation in Europe.

Ummmm!..so in your world…CF… you yourself would buy something that a salesperson told you you could have rather than what you wanted??
You must have a house-full of goods you didn’t want then!

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Here’s an idea cf- why don’t you email the University to tell them what was missed out of the thesis? Then post their reply on here.

I’m sure that if everyone on here is open minded enough to find and read their observations then they are probably also able to do that in regards to everything which has been said here. :bulb: :wink:

I nominate you as our representative. It is your duty to inform the owners of that thesis about the crucial information missing from it.

kr79:
Why are there plenty of Dutch operators running 340 and 360s on international work probaly more than any other nation in Europe.

At 40 t gross. :open_mouth:

However that’s still not the same thing as using a 265 Gardner in a 38 t gross world. :bulb:

That figure sounds more like what would be expected for just local running domestic work not euro to me considering what even the supermarket fleets are using here these days for local uk work. :confused:

Which probably explains why something like the F12 was more in demand even at 38 t gross and even among the Brit operators even during the 1980’s than anything with a Gardner 240/265 in it would have been.It was then just a matter of time until the British operators realised that the benefits of having more power rather than less applied wether they were just doing uk work or international.Which is more or less where the British and most european operators’ buying habits are now. :bulb:

However the fact is there was no market for Gardner engines in the world of the 1970’s on and that market which they did have was based on an erroneous buying policy that no surprise changed just as soon as the mistake was realised by those last buyers which was the final nail which took too long in coming.

Solly:
Ummmm!..so in your world…CF… you yourself would buy something that a salesperson told you you could have rather than what you wanted??
You must have a house-full of goods you didn’t want then!

From the point of view of a manufacturer who knows that the development schedule is being held up to the point being commercial suicide,by continuing to pander to what they know is an outdated erroneous customer buying policy,it was a case of there being nothing to lose by telling the customers what they could have take it or leave it or don’t and go under anyway.As history shows the Brit manufacturers chose the easier latter option.

I’ve seen plenty here and in France 5 axles full size trailer so I’m guessing 40 ton.

Late 1990s (sorry I cannot recall the precise date), at the Gordon Stamper auction at Culgaith near Penrith, buyers were paying up to £5,000 and more for Gardner 180 and 240 engines out of derelict Atkinsons and Seddon Atkinsons, but then again dealers have always made a good living out of buying and selling second hand Gardner engines.

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Here’s an idea cf- why don’t you email the University to tell them what was missed out of the thesis? Then post their reply on here.

I’m sure that if everyone on here is open minded enough to find and read their observations then they are probably also able to do that in regards to everything which has been said here. :bulb: :wink:

I nominate you as our representative. It is your duty to inform the owners of that thesis about the crucial information missing from it.

Hmmm… no response. This could mean one of two things:

  1. A long, carefully-twisted monologue is being spun, or
  2. He actually has no good answer.

Searching Wikipedia and YouTube

[zb]
anorak:
Hmmm… no response. This could mean one of two things:

  1. A long, carefully-twisted monologue is being spun, or
  2. He actually has no good answer.

So that’s 1 & 2 then… :unamused: :unamused:

I don’t know why anyone bothers to respond to the guy. He’s trolling - and has been doing so since he first came on here.

marky:

[zb]
anorak:
Hmmm… no response. This could mean one of two things:

  1. A long, carefully-twisted monologue is being spun, or
  2. He actually has no good answer.

So that’s 1 & 2 then… :unamused: :unamused:

I don’t know why anyone bothers to respond to the guy. He’s trolling - and has been doing so since he first came on here.

If just daring to dis agree with a majority opinion is trolling then there’s not much point in anyone bothering to discuss anything.Because all the forum rules need to say is dis agreeing with widely held beliefs will be considered as trolling and will result in the offending post being removed. :unamused:

[zb]
anorak:

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
Here’s an idea cf- why don’t you email the University to tell them what was missed out of the thesis? Then post their reply on here.

I’m sure that if everyone on here is open minded enough to find and read their observations then they are probably also able to do that in regards to everything which has been said here. :bulb: :wink:

I nominate you as our representative. It is your duty to inform the owners of that thesis about the crucial information missing from it.

Hmmm… no response. This could mean one of two things:

  1. A long, carefully-twisted monologue is being spun, or
  2. He actually has no good answer.

Or it could mean a third in which I’ve just ignored and defied your ‘instruction’ because an adequate response has already been provided.