Here you are “CF” ■■■■ off to bed and cuddle this !!! Bewick.
Bewick:
Here you are “CF” [zb] off to bed and cuddle this !!! Bewick.
More like I’ve dropped it from a great height onto all those arguments which blame striking British workers and bad service being the reasons why Gardner sank. 
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??
What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
As I remember it the standard of teaching in our schools was about the same level of intelligence as contained in that post unlike what I learn’t later on the shop floor,actually helping to make trucks for export,from those that knew better.
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
Sort of PPS,
Dear CF, you should, (but I expect that you are considerably younger than I), have worked in a family business, where your wages depended on each others efforts. What it was really like to be a driver, (chauffer routier…professional, a person of integrity and skill), Or in a" foreign" truck factory, with a communist union, where you learned all about “the workers”, (and how those luddites destroyed the whole effort! Dear CF, you are a sad person, and I feel pity for your lack of background.
A nd now, I challenge your post, and not the sad poster!
T he first of Rons F88s was a 240, you know, I doubt he would have given you a job as a shunter! I must tell Rob Owens about you, coming from Sparkbrook, he probably would have a descriptive phrase in mind,…CF, logic, knowledge…oh please I cannot stop laughing, where is my Bollinger. Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
Sort of PPS,
Dear CF, you should, (but I expect that you are considerably younger than I), have worked in a family business, where your wages depended on each others efforts. What it was really like to be a driver, (chauffer routier…professional, a person of integrity and skill), Or in a" foreign" truck factory, with a communist union, where you learned all about “the workers”, (and how those luddites destroyed the whole effort! Dear CF, you are a sad person, and I feel pity for your lack of background.
I don’t remember working with any communists or luddites which I would have thought should have been obvious by reading my posts. 
Carryfast:
Saviem:
Evening all, Mark (Nmm), you could not have picked a better hire and reward haulier as an example, Ron Sinclair, of Evesham. Wonderful man, disciplined, knowlegable, and considered. It was my colleague, and great friend, Rob Owens , who introduced Volvo into Rons fleet, (and was later as a director of “Midland DAF”, who was to put all the DAFs into Evesham)! But the KEY POINT, Volvo was the number two choice, it was the Lack of supply, that let us in…and believe me, when there was a problem ,…well we moved mountains to correct it!! Example…, gearbox failure on an F88,…same night up to Scotland, collect complete box, deliver to Evesham, along with two mechanics, …swop box… Lorry rolls at 0500, we go home…tommorow sort out the paper work, and who pays!!! (what we did from Walsall used to drive Phill Ives , (El Supremo at Ailsa Trucks, ex Ford, but a “proper lorry man”) nuts,…(but he knew that we were right, our repeat business said so)!! but the operator rolls!!! That dear CF, is what was the success of the Importers, SERVICE above all else!!! And it was not just the product, but its “back up”. And as an aside that really was the “Death”, of Bedford,…9 till 5.!!!Yes, “sans doubt”, when Sinclairs forsook AEC for Volvo it was a major coup!..but “we” worked B…y hard for it, the Imported product really was not that superior, but the people involved really were the “bogs dollocks”, (if this old man can use a contemporary expression)!! and it was a vital fact in the success of the “continentals” in the UK market, not the
“engineering”, believe me,( we were just as good), but the systems to support the product, and the lines of communication with the “factory”, … in the UK universally…(what example can I give)■■..Perhaps I would liken to pushing a bin liner full of cold custard up steep marble steps!!Saviem that sounds to me more like they just got lucky owing to the double standards applied by customers in relation to forgiving zb engineering in examples like those synchro Volvo gearboxes and turning a blind eye to the difference between paper horsepower figures v the real thing based on torque not engine speed in the case of that Trojan Horse F 88 heap.When any customer worth their salt,certainly the ones in the type of export markets that I knew,would have
along the lines we don’t care how good the service is we’ve got a relatively new wagon here with a failed transmission and that’s not acceptable.So either we can have a Fuller or Spicer in the things or you can shove it that’s assuming the alarm bells hadn’t been ringing as soon as they saw the amount of engine speed required to get that 290 hp and the obvious implications of that in respect of the amount of power the thing was turning out at more reasonable engine speeds which explains the Gardner 240’s fuel consumption advantage.Which of course was fools gold to the Gardner operators and Gardner’s management as soon as the Swedes got their act together in making bigger turbocharged engines on the basis,as I’ve said,that the aim is to combine high sepecific ouputs with a decent engine size hence the F12.
As you’ve admitted yourself,with the exception of the V8 Scania engine,the Scandinavians didn’t do it by better engineering.Whereas we blew it by having the ability of being able to turn out decent engineering but we didn’t have the money to put in the infrastructure required or our engineers to work making something as good or better as the Americans or the Germans could in time to challenge the Scandinavian competition.Which is why our truck manufacturing industry sank in the face of the Scandinavian invasion but theirs didn’t.As I’ve said most of the reason for that had it’s roots a lot further back in Britain’s financial situation caused by fighting two world wars and not getting the type of financial breaks which Germany got in the years after WW2.
However notwithsatanding any of that,even with in an ideal situation of the Germans being in the situation that Britain was,during the post war years,and Britain being in the position of Germany,no one with any sense would have invested money in Gardner to be the ones to beat the Swedish invasion.Just like WW2 the smart money would have been on a joint venture between AEC and Rolls Royce to have done the job.
Which just leaves the issue of who was going to buy an expensive superior British product when the Brits still wanted Gardner powered wagons,the Germans wouldn’t buy British anyway and bought Mercs and MAN’s etc because they knew the future of their country depended on buying domestically made products not imports,the Scandinavians obviously had their own products too,and the old colonial markets could get something with at least as much power for a lot less money from the Americans.
It doesn’t matter how good a truck is if it breaks down and you can’t get parts for it it’s useless. I’m not old enough to remember the fork en truck invasion but I remember reading truck magazine as a kind and when they spoke to operators whonhad forigen trucks in the 80s the story usually stated back up and availability of trucks and especially if they had been an owner driver just starting buying new trucks the British truck builders treated them like something they trod in and told them what and when they could expect the truck.
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
I can’t be bothered to quote the post by CF that you are referring to Saviem, but your reply to it echos my thoughts exactly. CF has really shown himself up for what he is with his post. He has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of how business works let alone any knowledge of operating trucks. The best thing he can do now is retire gracefully to lick his metaphorical wounds.
all the talk about horsepower , blah blah , it was about earning money with a minimum of downtime . i’ve had a 180 drop a valve at 6am , towed back to the workshop , replacement block , head piston etc , and back in action in time to load for morning . i bet you couldn’t have done that with a detroit . gaffers then wanted a basic , easy to fix engine not some yank screamer that they couldn’t get parts for . the gardner design was so long lived that most old companies had a shed full of spares . cheers , dave
rigsby:
all the talk about horsepower , blah blah , it was about earning money with a minimum of downtime . i’ve had a 180 drop a valve at 6am , towed back to the workshop , replacement block , head piston etc , and back in action in time to load for morning . i bet you couldn’t have done that with a detroit . gaffers then wanted a basic , easy to fix engine not some yank screamer that they couldn’t get parts for . the gardner design was so long lived that most old companies had a shed full of spares . cheers , dave
exactly ,that,s why i mostly operate old scanias,in the outback you wan,t a reable easy to fix,a motor you know as own poket,s .Scania is a perfect choise for us couse almost al we had are in the yard,and suprising many part,s fit from older to abit newer,as you told about whit gardner,so my choise is not scania for horsepower(use them as less then possible)it,s about total economy,cheers benkku
That is a lot of work to do. And of course the thing would be absolutely spotless when you got it in. Ahem, I lie.
The book time was somewhere between 27 and 40 hours according to who was trying to kid you. A set of the special Gardner piston ring clamps made the job SO much easier if, and it was a BIG ‘if’, they were available. Otherwise it was 40 nuts to get the sump off, those oil gallery pipes in the way of the big end nuts and a long winded procedure for re-torquing them. To change the block, off came the cambox assembly, which was often neatly tucked away almost inside the chassis rails and numerous oil pipes, some with Whitworth and some with BSF fixings; all requiring a new ‘packings’ on reassembly. The new block would have been refaced so the shim had to be unrolled onto the crankcase with Wellseal on both sides. I can’t recall whether the block came with studs in it or not, but I know I had to change them over on at least one occasion.
Now think fixed cab and perhaps 8 cylinders.
But it was a cream job - if only they would leave you alone to get on with it.
Then two months later it would be: “why did that Gardner take you so long?”
Now the question is: who has done it in a shift?
I’m not doubting that it was done between say 7am and 6am the next day, but how many men on the job?
i’ve had it done at foden’s workshop in a day ! . dropped a valve on the m1 at luton on a 5lw . gaffer said "limp it into foden’s " . locked the fuel down on number 4 and duly limped into foden , at 9 pm on monday . went down early doors wednesday to collect it . gaffer must have been well in with harry smith methinks , cheers , dave . ps i was peed off because i didn’t get a free meal chit for the canteen !!
gingerfold:
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
I can’t be bothered to quote the post by CF that you are referring to Saviem, but your reply to it echos my thoughts exactly. CF has really shown himself up for what he is with his post. He has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of how business works let alone any knowledge of operating trucks. The best thing he can do now is retire gracefully to lick his metaphorical wounds.
Here, here, motion carried
So the man who created Carryfast packed up a job at Vickers Aircraft Manufacturers in Weybridge because Fritz was earning more money building Beetles in Wolfsburg, I see that twisted logic is genetic, in this case the apple never fell far from the tree 
Then there’s some rambling about F88s being junk, which is absolute tripe, the F88 is the lorry that really set the ball rolling for the foreigners, then the mouthpiece for screaming two strokes goes on to put said F88 down for being high revving, it’s almost too funny for words
More inconsistencies follow with talk of Fuller and Spicer gearboxes, when on another thread, the constant mesh ZF 12spd was supposedly the best gearbox ever made
There has been mention of working on the shop floor at vehicle manufacturers before, from what I’ve read so far, I reckon Carryfast may well have had a hand in building Del Boy’s van 
No 4 in a 5LW. That’s a different kettle of fish. Only a 2 pot block to lift off and just the oil filter and lift pump in the way, cambox stays where it is. No need to take the sump off because the rod won’t clear the bore anyway. But still not the easiest of jobs because it has got to be in a rigid and a fixed cab - unless … one of those old Foden cabs could be made to tilt a little way; S36 would it be?
Luton on the M1. Heading north when it went? now that is a long downhill just before junction. I tease - sorry, I’m not having a pop. The amount of wear one found in the valve guides sometimes was quite frightening, no wonder the valve heads broke off sometimes.
One of our drivers tried to blow up a 5LW by rolling downhill with the vehicle in gear and the clutch held in. When he let it out, there was a mighty roar and he was nearly thrown through the windscreen. He was lucky the clutch didn’t disintegrate.The engine just resumed a steady tick over.
What happened to a TS3 given the same treatment had better be shrouded in mystery.
bma.finland:
rigsby:
all the talk about horsepower , blah blah , it was about earning money with a minimum of downtime . i’ve had a 180 drop a valve at 6am , towed back to the workshop , replacement block , head piston etc , and back in action in time to load for morning . i bet you couldn’t have done that with a detroit . gaffers then wanted a basic , easy to fix engine not some yank screamer that they couldn’t get parts for . the gardner design was so long lived that most old companies had a shed full of spares . cheers , daveexactly ,that,s why i mostly operate old scanias,in the outback you wan,t a reable easy to fix,a motor you know as own poket,s .Scania is a perfect choise for us couse almost al we had are in the yard,and suprising many part,s fit from older to abit newer,as you told about whit gardner,so my choise is not scania for horsepower(use them as less then possible)it,s about total economy,cheers benkku
hcvc.com.au/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1334302211
This is how one of Scania’s major competitors that,unlike the Brits,managed to stay the course ‘in the outback’,did it.No surprise that they didn’t do it using Gardner engines.
newmercman:
gingerfold:
Saviem:
Oh Dear, oh deary me. I come into the office to find a parts catalogue for one of my Claase balers, and find I have left the computer on this thread. What can I say??What utter drivel , what utter incomprehension of reality, what an idiot you really are dear CF. I have always said that the education system in Great Britain, is what really has failed our country, and here we have a classic example!! And in maturity, (for surely you must be such), How sad that you have such little real experience of this industry, but what a relief that you are not the norm…I shall raise a glass to that, and look forward to the contributions of “Real lorry men”", Bon Soir, Cheerio for now.
I can’t be bothered to quote the post by CF that you are referring to Saviem, but your reply to it echos my thoughts exactly. CF has really shown himself up for what he is with his post. He has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of how business works let alone any knowledge of operating trucks. The best thing he can do now is retire gracefully to lick his metaphorical wounds.
Here, here, motion carried
So the man who created Carryfast packed up a job at Vickers Aircraft Manufacturers in Weybridge because Fritz was earning more money building Beetles in Wolfsburg, I see that twisted logic is genetic, in this case the apple never fell far from the tree
Then there’s some rambling about F88s being junk, which is absolute tripe, the F88 is the lorry that really set the ball rolling for the foreigners, then the mouthpiece for screaming two strokes goes on to put said F88 down for being high revving, it’s almost too funny for words
More inconsistencies follow with talk of Fuller and Spicer gearboxes, when on another thread, the constant mesh ZF 12spd was supposedly the best gearbox ever made
There has been mention of working on the shop floor at vehicle manufacturers before, from what I’ve read so far, I reckon Carryfast may well have had a hand in building Del Boy’s van
It seems to me like you’ve got as much idea of what actually happened as Saviem has .He actually left his job at Vickers because the job only paid enough to be able to afford the bus fare between Kingston and Weybridge and paying the mortgage was becoming a problem too.Problem solved by ditching the highly skilled but underpaid aircraft engineering job for that job in the small local engineering firm in Teddington which paid for a car to drive to work instead of the bus and also paid enough to afford a bigger mortgage for a better house.
The reference to Volkswagen workers was to show the reasons for the low pay at Vickers not the reasons why he dumped the job.
Although having said that those Volkswagen line workers were probably also earning more than he earn’t at the better paying (for uk) job too.
As for the ZF box being the ‘best box ever made’ no I never said that.It was close but not as good as the fuller which you would have known if you’d have read my posts instead of just guessing what they say.
As for the so called high revving two strokes I think you’re just going by what others have told you based on the noise they made which being two stroke,not four stroke,just ‘sounded’ like they were revving twice a high as they actually were when it’s the actual figures that matter in which case,as I’ve said,comparing like with like a non turbo let alone a turbocharged 8V71 v F 88 motor,yeah right you’d lose everytime.Which is why Kenworth sold more trucks in Oz and NZ,where they know better than the Brits,than Volvo sold F 88’s.
it was a chinese six rigid s21 and the valve dropped southbound just by toddington ( hopped over the fence for the phone ) . i tipped 10 tons in luton before the long drag back to sandwich at 34 mph . the gaffer was a funny type , wouldn’t employ a fitter so we went to fodens for everything even greasing and brake adjusts , cheers , dave
Saviem:
Dear CF, you should, (but I expect that you are considerably younger than I), have worked in a family business, where your wages depended on each others efforts. What it was really like to be a driver, (chauffer routier…professional, a person of integrity and skill), Or in a" foreign" truck factory, with a communist union, where you learned all about “the workers”, (and how those luddites destroyed the whole effort! Dear CF, you are a sad person, and I feel pity for your lack of background…
Excuse my intervention here…Saviem…but are you suggesting “The workers” were responsible for the downfall of British engine and chassis manufacturing?
Solly:
Saviem:
Dear CF, you should, (but I expect that you are considerably younger than I), have worked in a family business, where your wages depended on each others efforts. What it was really like to be a driver, (chauffer routier…professional, a person of integrity and skill), Or in a" foreign" truck factory, with a communist union, where you learned all about “the workers”, (and how those luddites destroyed the whole effort! Dear CF, you are a sad person, and I feel pity for your lack of background…Excuse my intervention here…Saviem…but are you suggesting “The workers” were responsible for the downfall of British engine and chassis manufacturing?
Probably yes on the same basis that not only do the Thatcherites think the Brits were being paid a lot more than they actually were,which just left the option of walk away for a job which paid better or strike,those Thatcherites also don’t seem to be able to understand the fact that an F 88 motor was putting out less power,at higher engine speed,than a non turbo 8V71 let alone a turbocharged one.