Gardner ENGINES

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

newmercman:
Carryfast, did you live under Electricity Pylons as a child by any chance :question:

Not as I remember but it probably wouldn’t have made much difference to the fact that even a trained monkey could understand what happened to and caused the demise of firms like Gardner. :smiling_imp: :wink:

How come you don’t get it then?

Get what ?.Everyone obviously has different views of what happened to our industries in the post war years.But having heard first hand by those who’d been there before me and seen and been involved in it myself for at least a small part of that time I’m sure that my ideas on the causes aren’t a million miles away from the cause of it all.

kr79:
The story of the leyland groups profits been used to subsidise Austin princess production but Gardner ERF foden Atkinson etc were private company’s with healthy sales.
Scania Volvo Man Daf etc were hardly giant company’s with bottomless pockets but they found cash to design and build new products.

scania was married to saab for a long while and saab did not fly ,scania money keep.t saab in breath for years and still they could find money to made the simpliest good branded lorry in the word(even carryfast want the730,and that proves scania have to be good),cheers benkku

Carryfast:
Not as I remember but it probably wouldn’t have made much difference to the fact that even a trained monkey could understand what happened to and caused the demise of firms like Gardner. :smiling_imp: :wink:

Best get yourself off to the circus for a training course then! :smiling_imp:

bma.finland:

kr79:
The story of the leyland groups profits been used to subsidise Austin princess production but Gardner ERF foden Atkinson etc were private company’s with healthy sales.
Scania Volvo Man Daf etc were hardly giant company’s with bottomless pockets but they found cash to design and build new products.

scania was married to saab for a long while and saab did not fly ,scania money keep.t saab in breath for years and still they could find money to made the simpliest good branded lorry in the word(even carryfast want the730,and that proves scania have to be good),cheers benkku

But the problem for us bma was that,unlike Sweden,we were hammered by having to turn back and stop the might of Hitler’s Germany.That cost us money lots of it which we’ve only just recently finished paying back the money owed for it.I’ve based my ideas on the 730 on my experience of the V8 Detroits and the V8 Merc engine which just needed a turbocharger bolted to it to make a great motor.I think Scania probably just learn’t from those who’d been there and done it and then more or less perfected the idea.But as for AEC or Gardner having been able to have done that,no chance :wink:

Carryfast:

bma.finland:

kr79:
The story of the leyland groups profits been used to subsidise Austin princess production but Gardner ERF foden Atkinson etc were private company’s with healthy sales.
Scania Volvo Man Daf etc were hardly giant company’s with bottomless pockets but they found cash to design and build new products.

scania was married to saab for a long while and saab did not fly ,scania money keep.t saab in breath for years and still they could find money to made the simpliest good branded lorry in the word(even carryfast want the730,and that proves scania have to be good),cheers benkku

But the problem for us bma was that,unlike Sweden,we were hammered by having to turn back and stop the might of Hitler’s Germany.That cost us money lots of it which we’ve only just recently finished paying back the money owed for it.I’ve based my ideas on the 730 on my experience of the V8 Detroits and the V8 Merc engine which just needed a turbocharger bolted to it to make a great motor.I think Scania probably just learn’t from those who’d been there and done it and then more or less perfected the idea.But as for AEC or Gardner having been able to have done that,no chance :wink:

we do not go to politics no, finnland did pay to russia al they gilt,s and survided,and in same thime got to a country i,m proud of, more difficultes then the sweeds ,still i,ll know sisu,s well, and always have oned only scanias and volvos, even if they get out of war cheep :question: cheers(is it simply ther a better then the finish chrap whit AEC leyland RR ■■■■■■■ ,MACK RENAULT CAT M_B tyings :question: 00000000000000000000000yes ,easy scania have been scania since i,born and long before. the britts schold never fit a ■■■■■■■ everywhere thy could have surrvived

I would like to think that AEC could have survived as a stand alone company if they had had the finances they so desperately needed to survive before the ill fated and disasterous “merger” with Leyland.I think the TL12 was a worthy performer developed under financial restraints (AV760 with a bolted on turbo) so if they had the resources what would could have been achieved with the V8 and the turbo AV506 ,they had the products but couldnt develop them with both hands tied firmly behind their backs

The government paid war debt not the foden or Gardner family’s. AEC were an excellent engenering company And it was largely lord stokes who pushed them under. The v8 that was launched to early could have been devolped for many years to come look at scanias original v8 from 350hp in the 140 to 530 in the 144. AEC were pushing 250bhp out of there’s before a turbo went near it.
Who knows if it had been sorted and the t45 had been right from the start the roadtrain with interstate cab and a big v8 could have been a different truck.
Of course carryfast will disagree as he gets a stiffy at the thought of a big shiney American thing.

CF VC 10s are still flying as refuelling tankers, Nimrods which were simply an updated Comet were very recently scrapped even though the last few had never flown, Harriers have suffered the same fate in favour in both cases for a sexed up American version, more British jobs gone ok we were nt first on the moon but we were first with so many brilliant inventions that i ve lost count not least VTOL, furthermore Rolls Royce is only No. 3 in jet aircraft engine production behind Pratt and Whitney and G.E not bad for a Co. that was bankrupt in 1972 andhad. to be bailed out by the then British government. If you re so enamoured by the U.S. why don t you go and live with them perhaps you could teach them to speak proper English. Before I forget one of the conditions not well known of lease lend was that we the Limeys gave up most of our colonies after the war and paid for thru the nose for the help we had recieved, of course debtss have to be paidand we did. What this has to do with Gardner engines is beyond me but you keep moving the parameters and I wonder if you really are who you say you are. Rule Britannia. Crow.

PART 11,GARDNER ENGINES.
From WIKIPEDIA:-
World War II

During World War II the Government was again forced to borrow heavily in order to finance war with the Axis powers. By the end of the conflict Britain’s debt exceeded 200 percent of GDP, as it had done after the end of the Napoleonic Wars.[7] Once again the USA provided the major source of funds, this time via low interest loans and also through the Lend Lease Act. Even at the end of the war Britain needed American financial assistance, and in 1945 Britain took a loan for $586 million (about £145 million at 1945 exchange rates), and in addition a further $3,750 million line of credit (about £930m at 1945 exchange rates). The debt was to be paid off in 50 annual repayments commencing in 1950. Some of these loans have only recently been paid off. On 31 December 2006, Britain made a final payment of about $83m (£45.5m) and thereby discharged the last of its war loans from the USA.[10]

The fall of the British Commercial Vehicle Manufacturing Industry,which included L.Gardner & Sons Ltd of course,reminds me so much of the decline and fall of the British Motorcycle Manufacturing Industry,because some of the reasons for the fall of both of these once great industries are exactly the same and/or were similar. And at least some of the reasons also contributed to the decline of the British Motor Car Manufacturing Industry,although there were also other more complex reasons that caused the British-owned sector of the car industry to fail.
In the 1950s the above British motor vehicle manufacturing industries were the World leaders in,and No.1 exporters of, motor vehicles. The British Government’s number one order to the motor industry,and British industry in general,was to export most of it’s output to overseas markets,the reasons being so that Great Britain could pay off it’s World War Two Lend Lease debts and to pay for the post-war re-construction of the United Kingdom.

But with so much sales success both at home and abroad,the British Motor Industry became complacent and rested on it’s laurels to a certain extent - the motorcycle industry in particular. It was mainly managed by fuddy duddys set in their ways,who had been in charge since before World War Two who regarded motorcycles as luxuries for enthusiasts.

But in the late 1950s black-haired men,of small build and light complexion entered British and European motorcycle races with motorcycles that had strange and unfamiliar names,such as Honda,Suzuki,Kawasaki and Yamaha.They hardly won any races,but they learnt a lot about the competition and on how to improve their own motorcycles. The British motorcyle makers were bemused,but were in for a great shock during the 1960s.

The basic designs of many British motorcycles dated back to the 1930s - the Triumph 650 range owed it’s design to the Speed Twin of 1937,for example.Most British motorcycles were outdated. In contrast,the Japanese Motorcycle Industry,whose ■■■■■■■■■■ of the motorcycle markets of the world began in the early 1960s,produced faster,more powerful,more user friendly,more refined,innovative and modern -styled motorcycles…which were generally less noiser than British motorbikes.And the Japanese ones had electric starters! :exclamation: :smiley: And by the mid-1960s,Japanese motorcycles were winning most if not all of the races! :exclamation: :smiley: -this greatly helped Japanese motorcycle sales! :exclamation: :smiley: As did United Kingdom motorcycle dealers who switched from dealing in British motorcycle marques to dealing in Japanese motorcycle marques! :exclamation: A harbinger of things to come for UK dealers of British motorcar and commercial vehicle marques who also switched to imported motor vehicle marques.

And even though firms like Triumph ,BSA and Norton belatedly came out with new designs in the late 1960s,it was too little and too late:The Japanese dominated the market by then in terms of sales,new and innovative designs and economies of scale. The British motorcycle manufactures just could not compete,and went out of business one by one up to the early 1970s.Of course,there have been periodic revivals of the Norton and Triumph marques over the years,and marques such as BMW,Ducati and Harley-Davidson (a cult motorcycle) are still thriving,but Japan is still the World’s number one motorcycle producer.

In the case of the British Motorcycle Industry,the reasons for it’s decline are more severe and the time scale far less shorter compared to the decline of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry,but it is obvious that parallels do exist in the respective demises of these once great industries
Thus,Scandinavian,European and American commercial vehicle manufacturers produced faster,more powerful,more user friendly,more refined,innovative and modern (where have you read that before? :question: ! :exclamation: :laughing: ) lorries,buses and motorcoaches than British manufacturers.
There is no doubt that Gardner was the Rolls-Royce of Diesel Engines in terms of precision and quality,but Hugh Gardner was a conservative engineer with a capital C and was therefore a fuddy duddy.And,as with British motorcycles,his engine designs dated back to the 1930s - the 6LX of 1958 was based on the 1930s LW range! :exclamation: :unamused: The later 6LXB 180-188 (1966),8LXB 240-250 (1970),6LXC 201 and 8LXC 265 (1978),6LXCT 230 and 8LXCT 300 (1981) and 6LXDT 270-290 (1984) were all based on the 6LX,whose basic design is based on the LW range of 1931! :exclamation: :unamused:
Other than the 1931 LW design,the 4LK of 1935,and to a certain extent,the 6LX of 1958,the only other
brand new Gardner automotive diesel engine design was the 6LYT of 1984,which in this case,was a brand new design from the sump plug upwards…and this engine was designed by the forward thinking - and more broad-minded in engineering terms - Paul Gardner. And NOT by the conservative Hugh Gardner! :exclamation:

As in the cases of certain British car and motorcycle factories,some of Gardner’s production equipment dated back decades,and in the case of Gardner,back to the First World War! :exclamation:
I’ve said it before in earlier posts,Gardner lost their way in the late 1940s-early 1950s:Gardner produced underpowered engines,AEC,Leyland,Foden,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ advantage of this fact.Plus the two-three year waiting lists for Gardner engines,all of which took it’s toll on Gardner engine sales,both in the short term but especially the long term.
What’s more,Atkinson,ERF,Foden,Daimler,Bristol,etc,had had enough of these terriable Gardner idiosyncrasies by 1964 - they were losing sales,too,of course -so they added a £1000 surcharge on every Gardner engine that was fitted in their motor vehicles. This surcharge policy,which remained in force until the end of Gardner automotive diesel engine production in 1994,was to encourge operators to specify AEC,Caterpillar,■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ instead.

As CF says:Gardner was saved by a conservative and Gardner-loyal customer base throughout 1950s,1960s and,to a certain extent,the 1970s.But from the late 1970s,it was too late:■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ and later Caterpiller,became the main choice for engines in Foden,ERF,Seddon Atkinson,etc. And the likes of Scania,Mercedes-Benz and Volvo,were increasing their sales.The old order was changing,and for a number of reasons,engine buying and vehicle buying policies changed,which greatly damaged Gardner sales.
Lack of sales,quality control problems,lack of economies of scale,new engine emissions regulations,etc,all finished Gardner automotive engine production in 1994.

The main reason why Leyland fell behind the European and Scandinavian commercial vehicle makers,was
because Truck and Bus Division profits was spent on propping up the loss-making Morris-Austin Car Division,instead of being invested in new AEC,Albion,Bristol,Daimler,Guy,Leyland,Scammell and
Thornycroft ranges.Leyland should never have taken over BMC-BMH! :exclamation: By the 1980-1981 period,although Leyland had a new first class vehicle range - and had won the Truck Of The Year 1981
with the Roadtrain,it was too late,Leyland had lost a lot of market share,they had to stop making the TL12 Engine because it didn’t sell well enough,and the company ran at a loss until the DAF takeover of Leyland in 1987.

As for Atkinson,ERF,Foden,Seddon and later Seddon Atkinson,they too suffered from complacency,which
resulted in under-investment.But in the 1970s,their motor vehicle designs improved because of the wake-up call that they had received from the success of the importers.But the recessions of the 1980s and 1990s,the take overs of these companies,including Leyland,and the increasing dominance
of the foreign commercial vehicle manufacturers proved to be terminal for the remaining British marques.

VALKYRIE.

kr79:
The government paid war debt not the foden or Gardner family’s. AEC were an excellent engenering company And it was largely lord stokes who pushed them under. The v8 that was launched to early could have been devolped for many years to come look at scanias original v8 from 350hp in the 140 to 530 in the 144. AEC were pushing 250bhp out of there’s before a turbo went near it.
Who knows if it had been sorted and the t45 had been right from the start the roadtrain with interstate cab and a big v8 could have been a different truck.

The ‘government’ had no money at all only gold reserves and bonds to back the currency.Just like today when a company needed development capital it went to it’s investors and the banks and then had to sell it’s busines plan.The first problem in this case the banks had no money to lend because it was the banks which had to pay the war debts and there wasn’t loads of people rushing out to buy shares in AEC or Gardner.The next question,even if by some miracle they’d have found anyone with the type of funds required,would have been where,and how big,was the intended market for a truck like 350 hp V8 T45 followed by wether or not the product was already showing the type of reliable outputs required.

You’re right though in this case I’d have still gone for the American option which would have been a (much) cheaper,easier and more practical idea,just as the colonies did,on the basis of why bother just build a locally produced KW with a 3408 or an 8V92 or a 3406 or a 14 litre ■■■■■■■ for those who wanted a 6 cylinder option.Which seems to have been the only option as proved by the fact that US designs were able to remain competitive with Euro ones in the colonial markets ever since to date. :bulb:

Although it would obviously have been a bit difficult to even sell that idea to the bankers in an environment where the domestic market was still mainly looking for a naturally aspirated Gardner powered wagon with around 250 hp at best and the Euro and Scandinavian markets were all covered by their own domestic products.As Stokes (correctly) seems to have realised the writing was on the wall and it was just a matter of time before it was game over.Which as history shows is exactly what happened.

geoffthecrowtaylor:
CF VC 10s are still flying as refuelling tankers, Nimrods which were simply an updated Comet were very recently scrapped even though the last few had never flown, Harriers have suffered the same fate in favour in both cases for a sexed up American version, more British jobs gone ok we were nt first on the moon but we were first with so many brilliant inventions that i ve lost count not least VTOL, furthermore Rolls Royce is only No. 3 in jet aircraft engine production behind Pratt and Whitney and G.E not bad for a Co. that was bankrupt in 1972 andhad. to be bailed out by the then British government. If you re so enamoured by the U.S. why don t you go and live with them perhaps you could teach them to speak proper English. Before I forget one of the conditions not well known of lease lend was that we the Limeys gave up most of our colonies after the war and paid for thru the nose for the help we had recieved, of course debtss have to be paidand we did. What this has to do with Gardner engines is beyond me but you keep moving the parameters and I wonder if you really are who you say you are. Rule Britannia. Crow.

It’s not a question of being enamoured at all.It’s one of the best and most logical way to deal with a problem in this case the one related to the best way forward for the British truck manufacturing industry during the post war years.

I didn’t say that the VC10 was no good what I said was no one could afford it in the domestic market and,just as with trucks,no one wanted to buy it in the export markets when the US was turning out something at least as good cheaper even though those who built it were being paid relative peanuts for the job they were doing.That’s because it’s development costs outweighed the money which Vickers’ bankers were prepared or able to provide so the thing was already a financial liability to it’s makers before it even flew. :bulb:

That seems to sum up the issues running through post war British industry from it’s top technical levels like aircraft production to bottom like truck engine production.The fact is Germany actually beat us financially in WW2 by getting a better deal out of the post war rebuilding programme.They just didn’t realise it at the time while the Brits certainly did not long after.

So CF what you are really saying is that we were beaten almost before WW2 started, don t forget Britain declared war on Germany not the other way round in fact uncle Adolph did his utmost to prevent war between us. At the end of this conflict Deutschland was in ruins, smashed to bits and initially Uncle Sam was less than generous, to the victor the spoils of war , what spoils had it not been for the Russian Bear spitting and snarling i ve no doubt things would have turned out very differently at the very least West Germany had a ■■■■ sight better crack of the whip than their poor relatives in DDR.Countless thousands of allied troops were stationed in the West not to keep the Germans in shackels but to disuade the Ivans from overstepping the mark even today there are still a few allied troops there, The biggest flaw in your diatribe is that the Germans had exactly zero not only had they lost the war buteven before this they had suffered from inflation that we in Britain had largely escaped, as a consequence of this they were determined not to regress and as aresult of their hard work and lots of foreign investment they succeeded in pulling themselves out of the mire. they are very Nationalistic and tend to buy their own products taking the view that if a German built it , it must be ok, unlike we poor Brits so bloody Union minded, brain washed by a succession of barely disguised communist leaders it s little wonder that every thing fell to bits, not by under investment but strike after strike resulting in factory closures. I defy you to find a British built police car in any European police force yet ours are riddled with X5s and BMW motorbikes.Crow.

The Germans were not alone in their pride in their nation, everyone but Britain was the same, in France they ran Berliets, Saviems and Unics, in Italy than ran FIATs, In Holland and Belgium they ran Dafs, in Germany it was MAN, Magirus Deutz and Mercedes Benz and over the pond the Americans ran Freightliners, Kenworths, Macks, Peterbilts and Whites.

Cars were the same, the Japanese invasion never had the success it did in Great Britain anywhere else in Europe, the average man on the street together with the haulage industry lined the pockets of foreign companies, so it was little wonder that investment in the future by our manufacturers was not as it should’ve been :bulb:

This crying about the cost of war hobbling British engineering has gone on for two pages now. A previous link shows that GB’s war expenditure was about the same as Germany’s. The Wiki entry for the Marshall Plan shows that GB benefitted more from US loans than any other European state. You cannot use the war as an excuse for the failure of Gardner, Leyland or any other of the GB lorry builders.

o, in finland japanees came in60,s and in 70,s only corolla was near20%of market, thought we had only finish made saab 96 as competitor then :astonished:

geoffthecrowtaylor:
So CF what you are really saying is that we were beaten almost before WW2 started, don t forget Britain declared war on Germany not the other way round in fact uncle Adolph did his utmost to prevent war between us. At the end of this conflict Deutschland was in ruins, smashed to bits and initially Uncle Sam was less than generous, to the victor the spoils of war , what spoils had it not been for the Russian Bear spitting and snarling i ve no doubt things would have turned out very differently at the very least West Germany had a ■■■■ sight better crack of the whip than their poor relatives in DDR.Countless thousands of allied troops were stationed in the West not to keep the Germans in shackels but to disuade the Ivans from overstepping the mark even today there are still a few allied troops there, The biggest flaw in your diatribe is that the Germans had exactly zero not only had they lost the war buteven before this they had suffered from inflation that we in Britain had largely escaped, as a consequence of this they were determined not to regress and as aresult of their hard work and lots of foreign investment they succeeded in pulling themselves out of the mire. they are very Nationalistic and tend to buy their own products taking the view that if a German built it , it must be ok, unlike we poor Brits so bloody Union minded, brain washed by a succession of barely disguised communist leaders it s little wonder that every thing fell to bits, not by under investment but strike after strike resulting in factory closures. I defy you to find a British built police car in any European police force yet ours are riddled with X5s and BMW motorbikes.Crow.

:open_mouth: Blimey who’s really bashing the Brits :confused: .

The inconvenient truth is it was many of those so called ‘communists’ in our post war factories that were the same conscripts and workers that had not long before,beaten that so called hard working German master race.It’s just that unlike ze Germans they didn’t get the benefit of any investment because it was the investment which should have gone to them that actually formed the ‘foreign investment’ that went to the Germans instead to get their place up and running and pay for the development costs of their new products instead of ours.

While the Germans had unions just like us the only difference was that their unions didn’t need to strike because they were getting paid more for turning out Volkswagens than our workers were being paid to make Jaguars and aircraft like that VC10.Which is why the Germans could make more cars so their workers could drive to and from work while ours were often using the bus or bicycles.That was,of course,before the unions here managed to get wage levels high enough to improve that situation through the 1960’s and 1970’s.

The fact is if no one is earning good wages then no one can afford to buy loads of stuff so the economy collapses and importing loads of stuff that we can make for ourselves just creates a massive trade deficit and debt,which is more or less where we are now after years of Thatcher’s ideas on how to run an economy.

But you’re right uncle Adolph did his utmost to prevent war by invading Poland amongst others not to mention him and his loyal followers causing the deaths of millions of people although maybe we could have at least saved ourselves all the trouble by doing as Sweden,Spain,and Switzerland did by keeping out of it. :unamused:

But,to stay on topic,if Hitler had won (and assuming someone had changed his mind about invading Russia) Gardner still wouldn’t have survived :smiling_imp: and every truck driver would probably all have been driving MAN’s and Mercs here instead of DAF’s, Scanias and Volvos etc just so long as we all did as we were told by ze Germans in the new Europe and we didn’t upset ze German master race by trying to compete with them and asking for the same living standards as them. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

[zb]
anorak:
This crying about the cost of war hobbling British engineering has gone on for two pages now. A previous link shows that GB’s war expenditure was about the same as Germany’s. The Wiki entry for the Marshall Plan shows that GB benefitted more from US loans than any other European state. You cannot use the war as an excuse for the failure of Gardner, Leyland or any other of the GB lorry builders.

I think you’re getting confused about the fact that the Marshall aid plan and those loans weren’t a gift they were actually an economic millstone much of which ended up benefitting German and European industry in ‘foreign’ (British) investments while we had to pay for it all which as I’ve said is why British aircraft workers were chucking in their jobs because they couldn’t afford to live on the wages while German workers were paid more to produce Volkswagens.

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
This crying about the cost of war hobbling British engineering has gone on for two pages now. A previous link shows that GB’s war expenditure was about the same as Germany’s. The Wiki entry for the Marshall Plan shows that GB benefitted more from US loans than any other European state. You cannot use the war as an excuse for the failure of Gardner, Leyland or any other of the GB lorry builders.

I think you’re getting confused about the fact that the Marshall aid plan and those loans weren’t a gift they were actually an economic millstone much of which ended up benefitting German and European industry in ‘foreign’ (British) investments while we had to pay for it all which as I’ve said is why British aircraft workers were chucking in their jobs because they couldn’t afford to live on the wages while German workers were paid more to produce Volkswagens.

Look at the links that have already been posted. The German costs and debts were of the same order as those of the British. The differences are small, although the US loans to GB were slightly higher. The British Government took on the loan for its own benefit, not that of the lender. Even if, by some twisted logic, the lender’s preference to loan more money to GB can be construed as a disadvantage, it does not have anything to do with the downturn in Gardner’s fortunes. If you take the trouble to read the posts above, they were doing jolly well until the late 1950s. The war is nothing to do with it. Do not mention the war!

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
This crying about the cost of war hobbling British engineering has gone on for two pages now. A previous link shows that GB’s war expenditure was about the same as Germany’s. The Wiki entry for the Marshall Plan shows that GB benefitted more from US loans than any other European state. You cannot use the war as an excuse for the failure of Gardner, Leyland or any other of the GB lorry builders.

I think you’re getting confused about the fact that the Marshall aid plan and those loans weren’t a gift they were actually an economic millstone much of which ended up benefitting German and European industry in ‘foreign’ (British) investments while we had to pay for it all which as I’ve said is why British aircraft workers were chucking in their jobs because they couldn’t afford to live on the wages while German workers were paid more to produce Volkswagens.

Look at the links that have already been posted. The German costs and debts were of the same order as those of the British. The differences are small, although the US loans to GB were slightly higher. The British Government took on the loan for its own benefit, not that of the lender. Even if, by some twisted logic, the lender’s preference to loan more money to GB can be construed as a disadvantage, it does not have anything to do with the downturn in Gardner’s fortunes. If you take the trouble to read the posts above, they were doing jolly well until the late 1950s. The war is nothing to do with it. Do not mention the war!

:confused:

How do you make having to take on board a load of debt to help pay for the damage done to Britain’s economy in a war against Germany something that we ‘benefitted’ from.A debt is a financial liability not an asset which means money going out not coming in.Like all other post war British industry the need for the banks to clear that debt was the overwhelming priority in the economy not the investment in British industry which was needed.

Gardner might have been doing well until the late 1950’s, ( possibly even the late 1970’s as there were still obviously loads of customers still speccing and using the things at that time ) ,because they were making an obsolete product which was well suited to the obsolete demands of it’s domestic market.However like most British industry the funds weren’t there for investment in the development of the more modern products required for the demands of the market as it eventually became later and the modern machinery needed to produce those products more efficiently and therefore at the right price in the right quantities.While that market itself would probably have been demanding those more modern products far sooner if the British economy as a whole hadn’t been lumbered with having to pay back a massive war debt that it should never have been made liable for and in which case the tax regime might have at least allowed for US type road fuel prices in the domestic market and possibly throughout Europe except Germany.

The fact is the British were made to pay back the costs of a war in which Germany got rich off the back of the post war rebuilding programme instead of the whole debt being put where it belonged on Germany for re payment by Germany not us.

I think that this thread should now be locked because it has gone so far off the original topic that it is now meaningless.