Gardner ENGINES

Saviem:

windrush:
Saviem I recall reading that Bernard modified their Gardner engines by moving the fuel pump to the opposite side of the engine, much to Mr Gardner’s disgust! Personally I cant see how they did that (if indeed it is true) as it would require a different crankcase at the very least, have you any information on this at all?

Pete.

Yes they did, first thing I noticed when I “got up close”, (about 1965), Bernard are my all time favourites, (and so little is known about them). Cheerio for now.

Mr. Edge’s book says that they also altered the injectors. He also says that the license-built Gardners were less economical than the British originals, “as a result of different manufacturing processes.” Sounds like Gardner’s engineers knew more than was shown on their drawings. Now, the inevitable question for those with greater knowledge- were Bernard not tempted by the 6LX engine, given that it came into being in 1958?

I want to know more about Bernard. This is not the place, so I will start a new thread.

Hello cav551, Thankyou for the ans, ime sorry iff ime a bit slow or missing the point, but i still havent got the point of what…lw…lx…lexb… lxl etc means, still think Gardner engine was a good engine, never let me down in my early days on the rd. like every thing in life it has good points and bad points, i remmember comming up newport pagnel “bank” at 35…38mp…in 5th of 6 in db box!!!32ton, much later in life in fully auto merc (sorry)!!again 44 ton, held 54mph!!! how times changed , again thankyou fore your time.

trunker08:
Hello cav551, Thankyou for the ans, ime sorry iff ime a bit slow or missing the point, but i still havent got the point of what…lw…lx…lexb… lxl etc means, still think Gardner engine was a good engine, never let me down in my early days on the rd. like every thing in life it has good points and bad points, i remmember comming up newport pagnel “bank” at 35…38mp…in 5th of 6 in db box!!!32ton, much later in life in fully auto merc (sorry)!!again 44 ton, held 54mph!!! how times changed , again thankyou fore your time.

Hi Trunker, this is your next destination, I think:
nynehead-books.co.uk/description.php?II=621

Load your original motor to 44 ton and you’ll have time to read a chapter or two going past Newport Pagnell. :laughing:

hiya lads with me being a relitive youngster at 44 but the bloke my granfather worked for had an atki borderer with a 180 and a 6 speed davy brown and that wagon never missed a beat as long as i can remember hes just on doing the said borderer up and the tax disc last read was1979 after standing all this time it was fired up and diagnosed with a cracked block. Second hand 180 fitted - will just have to see how it performs as the wagon’s nearly finished but not quite. He also has a Sed Ak 400 with a 240 in it and a 9 speed fuller - the wrong way round gear change pattern. This engine was done up about 15-20 year ago if I recall and that also has not missed a beat. I often get to drive the Sed Ak and even with me being young(ish) think that 8 cylinder Gardner sounds excellent! Trucknet - something for everyone!! Trouble is now, no young uns know how to drive a crash box - unless it’s automatic no-one wants to know, or so it seems. Regards, Wingnut :slight_smile:

Wingnut:
hiya lads with me being a relitive youngster at 44 but the bloke my granfather worked for had an atki borderer with a 180 and a 6 speed davy brown and that wagon never missed a beat as long as i can remember hes just on doing the said borderer up and the tax disc last read was1979 after standing all this time it was fired up and diagnosed with a cracked block. Second hand 180 fitted - will just have to see how it performs as the wagon’s nearly finished but not quite. He also has a Sed Ak 400 with a 240 in it and a 9 speed fuller - the wrong way round gear change pattern. This engine was done up about 15-20 year ago if I recall and that also has not missed a beat. I often get to drive the Sed Ak and even with me being young(ish) think that 8 cylinder Gardner sounds excellent! Trucknet - something for everyone!! Trouble is now, no young uns know how to drive a crash box - unless it’s automatic no-one wants to know, or so it seems. Regards, Wingnut :slight_smile:

forgot to say the sed ak was one of marsden frieghts RAJ 507R if any one has any pics of it post them on il be over the moon :smiley: :smiley:

For those missing the experience of a straight eight Gardner. Two quite long clips. No pun intended!

youtube.com/watch?v=GPnFjwKp … re=related

youtube.com/watch?v=dOx1-CIn … ure=relmfu

trunker08:
Hello cav551, Thankyou for the ans, ime sorry iff ime a bit slow or missing the point, but i still havent got the point of what…lw…lx…lexb… lxl etc means, still think Gardner engine was a good engine, never let me down in my early days on the rd. like every thing in life it has good points and bad points, i remmember comming up newport pagnel “bank” at 35…38mp…in 5th of 6 in db box!!!32ton, much later in life in fully auto merc (sorry)!!again 44 ton, held 54mph!!! how times changed , again thankyou fore your time.

Gardners designed and built the first direct fuel injection “small” diesel engine which was high-revving enough (1300 rpm) for automotive use. This was in 1929 and the engine was called the L2 series. It ran on what was then known as heavy oil, similar to diesel fuel, and back then this fuel was dirt cheap and was not taxed by the government. The L2s original intended application was as a marine auxiliary unit and it was available as a modular design and could be built as any number of cylinders between 1 and 6. Therefore a 4L2 was a 4 cylinder engine. Trevor Barton of Barton buses in Nottingham realised the potential of cheaper fuel costs with a heavy oil engine because petrol engines in commercial vehicles were thirsty and petrol was taxed by the government. Barton fitted a Gardner 4L2 into a bus and it was successful. Other makes of diesel engines in road going vehicles had been tried in previous years by operators but they were all indirect fuel injection designs and they were unreliable. Other bus operators and hauliers then started fitting 4L2s, 5L2s and 6L2s into various types and makes of vehicles. Realising the potential of the automotive commercial vehicle market Gardner designed the LW series of engines specifically for commercial vehicles. Again LW engines were eventually available with 1 to 6, and 8, cylinders. They used aluminuim crankcases and the design was much lighter in weight than the L2s. They were also higher revving at 1700 rpm maximum. Gardner LW engines became very popular in the early 1930s as replacement engines for thirstier petrol engines in lorries and buses and of course ERF specified Gardners as original equipment when it started up in 1933. At the same time as Gardner entered the market AEC and Leyland also perfected its own diesel engines but they were indirect injection designs and less economical on fuel then Gardners. With the rapid switch to cheaper and more economical diesel fuel the government introduced a tax on diesel fuel. (Nothing new there).

The LW engine series continued in production until the late 1960s. The 6LX Gardner 150 bhp was introduced in 1958, available only as a 6-cylinder, based on the LW design but with bigger cylinders and other improvements. The 6LXB was a retuned version for 180 bhp introduced in 1967, and the 6LXC was a further tuning for 200 bhp. All these variants were based on the 6LX. the 8LXB and 8LXC were 8-cylinder versions. Later engines with T were turbocharged versions. Into the 1980s the 6LDT and 6LYT were completely new designs after Gardners had ceased to be a family owned independent company.

Saviem:
Some would say the finest oil engine ever, economic , light, ultra reliable. Were they? Were the products as good as the image? Why did they loose their captive market? Did their inability to satisfy demand lead to the demise of the UK assemblers, ERF, Atkinson, Guy? What were they like to “live with”, every day ? Over to you Gentlemen…

I drove a B series E.R.F. with a 240 gardner for 8 years with B.R.S Wrexham fleet no. CK86 reg RFM259P it kept going for ever.I drove home from down south with the clutch cylinder gone start off in 1st gear on the starter motor , I had the engine running backwards a few times rocking it to get going in snow . when Finally had a new Scania 112 I was really sad to lose the old E.R.F NOT!

IMHO the Gardner engine was the finest engine of it’s time/era i.e. 30’s/40’s/50/s 60’s and most of the 70’s but you can compare their longevity and their decent into oblivion to that of the Ford Model T and Henry Fords obsession with continuing(against advice) to produce the “T” into the 20’s even when other mauufactures products were far more refined than the old model “T”.Henry finally,and reluctantly,had to accept that with plumeting sales Fords had to come up with newer,and better, models,which they did! Gardner,unfortunately,wasn’t in a position to respond the same as Ford and ,of course,Gardners main customers were losing ground against the onslaught of the importers,who lets face it,were producing a far better motor than the British assemblers,I’m very sad to say !! Cheers Bewick.

Bewick:
IMHO the Gardner engine was the finest engine of it’s time/era i.e. 30’s/40’s/50/s 60’s and most of the 70’s but you can compare their longevity and their decent into oblivion to that of the Ford Model T and Henry Fords obsession with continuing(against advice) to produce the “T” into the 20’s even when other mauufactures products were far more refined than the old model “T”.Henry finally,and reluctantly,had to accept that with plumeting sales Fords had to come up with newer,and better, models,which they did! Gardner,unfortunately,wasn’t in a position to respond the same as Ford and ,of course,Gardners main customers were losing ground against the onslaught of the importers,who lets face it,were producing a far better motor than the British assemblers,I’m very sad to say !! Cheers Bewick.

Evening all, Dennis, you are quite right! Cheerio for now

Hopefully I can add a little more to Gingerfold’s input.

The L2 designation can be interpreted as follows, “L” is for ‘vertical engine’, the “2” denotes a particular cylinder size, i.e. the bore and stroke (1.4 litres cyl). The basic design had a sump located crankshaft, with a separate crankcase/block assembly and separate heads. (There were many marine and automotive car engines of that era built along similar lines).

The L3 and later L3B engines were therefore one cylinder size up from the L2. ( At 3 litres per cylinder!)

Once the bus and truck operators noted the general performance and efficiency of the engine they obviously asked for a lighter engine to be designed.

The LW was therefore produced to meet this market. The LW designation standing for vertical / lightweight.
At this point the new aluminium crankcase became the major weight saving area and it also incorporated the crankshaft, the oil ‘sump’ therefore became just that, a receptacle for the oil only.

The LX came along around 1956. It was a direct descendant of the 6LW, but, with a larger bore/stroke giving 1.74 litres cyl. The cylinder block became a single casting rather than the two of the 6LW. The 6LXB was an upgrade to the 6LX with minor mods to fuelling and RPM up to 180 BHP. 8LXB’s gave 240BHP.

For the truck market the LXC was produced in 1978 which was an update of the 6LXB to 201 BHP, approx 3000 produced.

The 6LXCT was a direct derivative of the 6LXB ( n.b. not the 6LXC! ), with an increase to 230BHP, the PSV spec went up to 242 BHP for horizontal engines to meet coach legislation. An 8LXCT version gave 265 BHP.

The 6LXDT was a further derivative along the same lines but with major design changes to give 2.1 liters cyl and 270 BHP.

The 6LYT was an all new (Metric) design of 15.5 litres with a rating of up to 350BHP, with 2 valve heads. The 6LYTi was also produced for the marine market.

The LG1200 was the last ‘new’ engine at 12.7 litres, and, was precisely what the 6LXDT should have been in the first place. It was an amalgam of the LXDT and LYT being a more compact design with all the “iffy” bits addressed.

Just when you start to think your product can properly meet a number of market sectors then along come the politicians deregulating the bus industry, your truck customers get swallowed up, fishing quotas decimate boat building
and the boss says ““How much■■? you must be joking!”” (to meet the next round of emission legislation )

In retrospect, anyone in the business of selling loose diesel engines into the automotive market place have been under severe pressure for the past 25 years due to the volumes necessary to fund new designs, keep up with legislation etc and the general demise of their market place over that period, i.e. AEC, Bedford, ERF, Atkinson, Leyland, Bristol, Daimler, etc, etc. Never Forget, hindsight is always 100%!!!

From memory the LXCT introduced other changes apart from the turbocharger. The advance and ■■■■■■ variable injection timing device was deleted, as were both the decompression gear and the very useful injection priming levers on the fuel pump. The LXDT, apart from the change in bore size, deleted the CAV BPE (or was it a BPF) injection pump and Gardner cambox assembly in favour of a Majormec pump. The LYT threw out just about everything and introduced flywheel end timing gears.

The Green series LXB for bus application had the changes introduced with the LXCT minus the turbo but with differently set injectors.

Gardner were already in big trouble with quality at the time of the LXDT. I had to partially strip a 6 cylinder which was throwing oil out of the rear main, because the transfer pump pick-up elbow had no hole in it. I had found a timing chain joining plate in the sump and had also seen that the camshaft drive gear for the oil pump was very badly worn. All of this on an engine that had covered approximately 6000 miles, belonging to Thomas Transport of Northiam. Gardner would not let me complete warranty repairs without supervision from one of their field service engineers. I had been ordered to stop work immediately upon discovering these defects.

We had one Foden with a turbocharged LXC in it (a 1983 model) and I cant recall it being any different visually to the standard LXC, apart from the ‘snail’ bolted on of course, but I stand to be corrected on that. It did go better though, we couldn’t quite do two loads of tarmac from our quarry seven miles north of Ashbourne to the Ladbroke bypass, Warwickshire, with the standard LXC’s but the turbocharged one could!

Pete.

Did anyone mention the company who built Gardner Engines

L Gardner and Sons Ltd. I hear you all cry :stuck_out_tongue:

:arrow_right:

:arrow_right:

Eventually L Gardner was taken over in the 90’s by Hawker Siddely. Aviation and Marine

Dave the Renegade:
Table 7 — Gardner Automotive Engine Sales by Customer, 1955 - 1962
1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962
Atkinson 419 540 349 327 403 504 590 612
Bristol 417 528 539 515 626 485 533 645
Daimler 167 351 202 152 156 100 271 378
ERF 412 476 436 273 452 509 613 641
Foden 575 712 585 464 603 713 794 762
Guy 696 594 524 275 335 399 238 288
Scammell 85 130 89 49 74 164 191 207
Seddon 0 83 86 57 64 73 96 77
Total 2,771 3,414 2,810 2,112 2,713 2,948 3,326 3,610
Source: Vintage Engine Register quoted in Edge, Legendary

Interesting numbers there Dave,I noticed that in 1955 Guy’s were the largest user by customer,although the engines could have been mainly 4LK’s.I was told years ago that Gardners sold their engines as “number of cylinders” so the end user could order their allocation in any engine configuration they required.Cheers Dennis.

Staying out of the bickering just sharing this account of a 1968 Gardner 180 cold start;

Driver David Machin recalls a pyrotechnic cold start, “I used to lift off the interior bonnet (a pain if you had a lot of kit with you) remove the air intake hose and light a piece of rag or rolled up paper. Press the starter with one hand, let the fire be drawn into engine and it would usually start up straight away. The trick was to have a good battery and not let go of the key until she fired!”

Hiya just look at this little gem 8 cylinder 150, pitty it would be to heavy for its day in the uk, when we run at 30ton gvw

John

3300John:
Hiya just look at this little gem 8 cylinder 150, pitty it would be to heavy for its day in the uk, when we run at 30ton gvw

John

What application was this engine used on John? I bet the Fair ground lads would give their right arms to own and operate this “diamond” ! Cheers Dennis.

Bewick:

3300John:
Hiya just look at this little gem 8 cylinder 150, pitty it would be to heavy for its day in the uk, when we run at 30ton gvw

John

What application was this engine used on John? I bet the Fair ground lads would give their right arms to own and operate this “diamond” ! Cheers Dennis.

Thought who ever took the photo would of removed them boxer’s first :blush:

Wingnut:
Trouble is now, no young uns know how to drive a crash box - unless it’s automatic no-one wants to know, or so it seems. Regards, Wingnut :slight_smile:

Speak for yourself! :laughing: Regards, a 32 year old old ex Foden driver.