Ive got the TC on this but i was wondering what you guys think about this.
6am CARD in 11pm CARD out ← 2 hours over i know bad day on the 25 and 40 and its the LAST CARD and my Weekly Rest started at 11pm when i took the card out.
Now on Wednesday afternoon i got pulled on the a34 just after sutton scotny north and the police man he has issued me with a FPN for not taking 9 hours daily rest at the end of the shift despite me been on weekly rest and not working the next day. We did argue and i had a complete clean tacho history as he checked and he asked me to explain the working time rules regards to breaks and he said i was wrong. Personally a slap on the wrist would have done given the circumstances and my clean sheet on tacho’s
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
What do you think i know its brief but i think you get the gist.
You seem to be missing some information, like what day did the 17 hour day happen, when did the weekly rest start (time and day) and when (time and day) did you start again.
RobK:
You seem to be missing some information, like what day did the 17 hour day happen, when did the weekly rest start (time and day) and when (time and day) did you start again.
It was a sunday and my working week is wed-sun / tuesday-sun
I started back on tuesday so had 11pm sunday to 9.30am tuesday off.
Danny27404:
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
Exceeding working time and insufficient rest in the example you’ve given, are in effect, the same thing. Within the 24 hrs from when your shift starts you have to have either a full daily rest or a reduced one if you have any remaining. This applies on EVERY working day, and is no different on your last one. By working over 15 hours, you left yourself with only 7 hrs left out of the 24 to count as daily rest. This is irrespective of your weekly rest. So you have been done for insufficient rest. You could argue that you did, in practice, have in excess of 9 hrs rest, but as far as the regulations are concerned, you didn’t have enough hours remaining for it to count. Does that make sense?
Yes so does that mean then that my weekly rest starts monday 6am then if i have to have a daily rest. I would have understood if he did me for the working time. You cant count both together surely. This working time has got me confused more and more because if you do a 15hour day you cant have 11 rest and have it count. Meaning were forced to take a reduced rest as in the 24hour period you can only have 9hours rest. Which means that in effect the working time regulations have become dangerous as we are effectively been forced to reduce rest to catch up/keep a good working week without.
For example…
Monday start time 4am work 15 hours 7pm finish 9 off but you dont want to start whilst 7am catch up on some sleep. But the rules SAY no you have to use a 9 hour because of the 24hour rule. Which now leaves wasted time on the daily rest and your boss saying get up 4am and go dont waste time you only have 2 9’s left.
Danny27404:
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
Exceeding working time and insufficient rest in the example you’ve given, are in effect, the same thing. Within the 24 hrs from when your shift starts you have to have either a full daily rest or a reduced one if you have any remaining. This applies on EVERY working day, and is no different on your last one. By working over 15 hours, you left yourself with only 7 hrs left out of the 24 to count as daily rest. This is irrespective of your weekly rest. So you have been done for insufficient rest. You could argue that you did, in practice, have in excess of 9 hrs rest, but as far as the regulations are concerned, you didn’t have enough hours remaining for it to count. Does that make sense?
Yes, or to put it another way, you need to look at your rest periods per 24 hour period between midnight and midnight. If you don’t have minimum 9 hours rest in any midnight-midnight period that you’re working then you have broken the rules by not having insufficient rest. I fell foul of this one myself some years and had a lengthy argument with Neil about it at the time.
To cut a long explanation short, you’ve been done for your 17hr day. Unless your card was marked with the reason and also shows you stuck in a jam for the vast majority of that last 2 hours on the trace then you haven’t got a leg to stand on if you plan on contesting it.
Danny27404:
Yes so does that mean then that my weekly rest starts monday 6am then if i have to have a daily rest. I would have understood if he did me for the working time. You cant count both together surely. This working time has got me confused more and more because if you do a 15hour day you cant have 11 rest and have it count. Meaning were forced to take a reduced rest as in the 24hour period you can only have 9hours rest. Which means that in effect the working time regulations have become dangerous as we are effectively been forced to reduce rest to catch up/keep a good working week without.
For example…
Monday start time 4am work 15 hours 7pm finish 9 off but you dont want to start whilst 7am catch up on some sleep. But the rules SAY no you have to use a 9 hour because of the 24hour rule. Which now leaves wasted time on the daily rest and your boss saying get up 4am and go dont waste time you only have 2 9’s left. Does that make sense?
Eh? What makes you think you’ve got to have 9 off? Explain to me why you can’t take 12 off (as in your example)?
Danny27404:
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
There is no 15 hour max rule, in fact there is no mention of 15 or 13 hours maximum shift length anywhere in the regulations so you could not have been issued with an FPN for exceeding working time as no limit is mentioned for working time. There is no offence of exceeding working time, the offence is insufficient rest which is what the FPN has been issued for.
The regulations are all built around the amount of rest required in the 24-hour period which commences when you resume work after a rest period. This, as you know is 11 hours which can be reduced to 9 three times between weekly rest periods. That is how we get the 15 and 13 hour thing, we know we have to have 11 hours rest so that leaves 13 for work in the 24 hours, 9 hours rest leaves 15 hours for work in the period.
Even though it was your last shift before your weekly rest you still have to comply with the rest requirements for the 24-hour period because you extend a daily rest into a weekly rest. If this wasn’t the case you could end up with four reduced rest periods by reducing Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday then on Friday working more than 13 hours, in fact if it didn’t apply then there would be nothing in teh regulations to stop you working 24 hours before starting your weekly rest.
On that day you started at 06:00 so you should have finished by 19:00 if you had no reduced rests available or 21:00 if you did.
A lot of drivers get caught out by this and it is a result of them thinking in terms of 13’s and 15’s, which as I said are not defined in the regulations. You need to stop thinking about 13’s and 15’s and work on daily rest instead, replace 13’s and 15’s with 9’s and 11’s.
On any day, including the last day before your weekly rest, if your shift is more than 13 hours, even just 13 hours and 1 minute you have used a reduced daily rest period and you can only do that 3 times between weekly rest periods.
The fact that it was the last shift of the week doesn’t make any difference, the regulations are quite clear that the daily rest has to fall within the 24 hour period from the start of shift which yours didn’t.
It may seem unfair when you consider that you’re going onto a weekly rest after the shift ends but it’s been this way for a long time now so I’m afraid they’ve got you and the best thing you could do would be to pay the FP and move on in my opinion.
Ive got the TC on this but i was wondering what you guys think about this
Have you really told the TC that you’ve not complied with the daily rest requirements
does that mean then that my weekly rest starts monday 6am then if i have to have a daily rest
The regulations make it clear that a daily rest period can be extended to make a weekly rest period, so yes you can be on a daily rest period and a weekly rest period at the same time if you want to see it that way.
The mistake you’re making is in seeing the 15 hour rule which doesn’t exist, it’s all about the daily rest period being within the 24 hour period, there’s no mention of a 13/15 hour rule in the regulations
Danny27404:
Ive got the TC on this but i was wondering what you guys think about this.
6am CARD in 11pm CARD out ← 2 hours over i know bad day on the 25 and 40 and its the LAST CARD and my Weekly Rest started at 11pm when i took the card out.
Now on Wednesday afternoon i got pulled on the a34 just after sutton scotny north and the police man he has issued me with a FPN for not taking 9 hours daily rest at the end of the shift despite me been on weekly rest and not working the next day. We did argue and i had a complete clean tacho history as he checked and he asked me to explain the working time rules regards to breaks and he said i was wrong. Personally a slap on the wrist would have done given the circumstances and my clean sheet on tacho’s
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
What do you think i know its brief but i think you get the gist.
I get the gist, but i think its you that doesn’t !! You have been in effect issued with a FPN for exceeding working time by 2 hours no matter how you wanna dress it up or disect it.
Danny27404:
Yes so does that mean then that my weekly rest starts monday 6am then if i have to have a daily rest. I would have understood if he did me for the working time. You cant count both together surely. This working time has got me confused more and more because if you do a 15hour day you cant have 11 rest and have it count. Meaning were forced to take a reduced rest as in the 24hour period you can only have 9hours rest. Which means that in effect the working time regulations have become dangerous as we are effectively been forced to reduce rest to catch up/keep a good working week without.
This is nothing to do with the WTD, it’s all EU Driver’s Hours regs.
Danny27404:
For example…
Monday start time 4am work 15 hours 7pm finish 9 off but you dont want to start whilst 7am catch up on some sleep. But the rules SAY no you have to use a 9 hour because of the 24hour rule. Which now leaves wasted time on the daily rest and your boss saying get up 4am and go dont waste time you only have 2 9’s left.
Nothing to stop you taking 12 hours off there but it will still be a reduced rest because only 24 hours was in the 24-hour period which began when you resumed work after your last rest period. The regulations lay down the minimum rest required in that 24-hour period but that doesn’t mean you can’t tag on more rest that falls outside that time frame, it just won’t count as anything for the regulations unless you are using it to compensate for a reduced weekly rest.
You can take 12 off, but you will still have to count it as a reduced rest.
I think you’re getting confused because you’re thinking of shift time, and rest requirements as separate issues. They are the same regulation. The only reason we talk about 13 and 15 hour spread overs is simply because that’s how many hours are left when we take an 11 or 9 hr rest.
AFAIK you will never be done for “exceeding spread over” as it is actually “insufficient rest” although I stand to be corrected on the way I have explained that
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
I think ive been reading these rules to much and i sent the TC a copy of my tacho’s with my name etc blacked out and told him what happened and what his opinion is.
Rob K:
grumpybum:
Danny27404:
As far as i was aware on your last card the 24hour day doesn’t exist because your weekly rest starts. You still have to adhere to the 15 hour max rule. And i should have been issued with a exceeding the working time by 2 hours FPN.
Exceeding working time and insufficient rest in the example you’ve given, are in effect, the same thing. Within the 24 hrs from when your shift starts you have to have either a full daily rest or a reduced one if you have any remaining. This applies on EVERY working day, and is no different on your last one. By working over 15 hours, you left yourself with only 7 hrs left out of the 24 to count as daily rest. This is irrespective of your weekly rest. So you have been done for insufficient rest. You could argue that you did, in practice, have in excess of 9 hrs rest, but as far as the regulations are concerned, you didn’t have enough hours remaining for it to count. Does that make sense?
Yes, or to put it another way, you need to look at your rest periods per 24 hour period between midnight and midnight. If you don’t have minimum 9 hours rest in any midnight-midnight period that you’re working then you have broken the rules by not having insufficient rest. I fell foul of this one myself some years and had a lengthy argument with Neil about it at the time.
To cut a long explanation short, you’ve been done for your 17hr day. Unless your card was marked with the reason and also shows you stuck in a jam for the vast majority of that last 2 hours on the trace then you haven’t got a leg to stand on if you plan on contesting it.
The trace shows i spent the best part of 3 hours crawling on motorways although at the end of the night doing a print out was the last thing on my mind not seen mrs or kids for 5 days i just wanted to get home. I did explain this to the copper and my interpretation of the rules but his every other word was your a profesional driver. after a few minutes i kicked him out the cab and said goodbye.
Suppose the £120 will be paid then and its a very expensive lesson. Now considering all my clean cards i could have had a warning but looks like this could be the future last card shafted by traffic your not seeing your family for a few weeks of which ■■■■■ and has definitely pushed me further to hanging my keys up.
I’m human i will make mistakes but that is far to much to pay for 1 mistake.
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can have as long as you like but it will still be one of your 3 allowed reduced daily rest periods. Shift 13 hours = not reduced rest. Shift 13 hours and 1 minute = reduced rest regardless of how much rest you actually take.
Danny27404:
The trace shows i spent the best part of 3 hours crawling on motorways
What part of the day? If it was the last part of the day then you have mitigating circumstances but if it was earlier in the day then you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Danny27404:
Suppose the £120 will be paid then and its a very expensive lesson. Now considering all my clean cards i could have had a warning but looks like this could be the future last card shafted by traffic your not seeing your family for a few weeks of which ■■■■■ and has definitely pushed me further to hanging my keys up.
But on the flip side if everyone could work for as long as they wanted on the last shift of their week then that would mean a lot of tired drivers and more than likely people never getting home to see their families, except in a box.
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can have as long as you like but it will still be one of your 3 allowed reduced daily rest periods. Shift 13 hours = not reduced rest. Shift 13 hours and 1 minute = reduced rest regardless of how much rest you actually take…
Ok now im getting confused if i work 14 hours i have to accept the 9 hours rest regardless of how much i have?
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can have as long as you like but it will still be one of your 3 allowed reduced daily rest periods. Shift 13 hours = not reduced rest. Shift 13 hours and 1 minute = reduced rest regardless of how much rest you actually take…
Ok now im getting confused if i work 14 hours i have to accept the 9 hours rest regardless of how much i have?
Yes, 24 hours - 14 hour shift = 10 hours rest = reduced rest of less than 11 hours.
Your confusion is because you are thinking in terms of these non existent rules allowing you to work for 13 or 15 hours. There is no such rules and those figures are only arrived at by subtracting the minimum amount of rest from 24 hours.
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can have as long as you like but it will still be one of your 3 allowed reduced daily rest periods. Shift 13 hours = not reduced rest. Shift 13 hours and 1 minute = reduced rest regardless of how much rest you actually take…
Ok now im getting confused if i work 14 hours i have to accept the 9 hours rest regardless of how much i have?
Yes. That’s how I got caught out. I’d done a 15, then 9 off, then a 14 then 11 off, then a 15 with 9 off. And then I had 9 off on Friday to run in early Sat morning. I couldn’t see the problem with it until Herr Hobbs explained it at length. Must’ve been running bent for years!
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can certainly take 11 after a 15, BUT it will count as one of your reduced rests (11 + 15 =26)
Ok so really this can be dangerous especially to those who bow down to the boss you could end up working your bum off 3 days in a row and get tired. I know my boss would do this saying your not wasting your reduced rest. I mean why work 13 and a half hours when you may-aswel work 15. You can only have 9 hours rest recorded.
Danny27404:
ok loads of posts are been added when i press submit post ok so i can have 11 after a 15 not so bad then.
You can certainly take 11 after a 15, BUT it will count as one of your reduced rests (11 + 15 =26)
Ok so really this can be dangerous especially to those who bow down to the boss you could end up working your bum off 3 days in a row and get tired. I know my boss would do this saying your not wasting your reduced rest. I mean why work 13 and a half hours when you may-aswel work 15. You can only have 9 hours rest recorded.
That’s when you have to make a judgement call. “Do I push on to the next services which means I will have worked 13.5 hours or do I stop here at 13 hours and save a reduced rest?”
You can also work it to your favour, you hold all the cards not the boss. If you go a couple of minutes over 13 hours you have reduced your rest and you can only do that 3 times between weekly rest periods so once you have used them up the boss cannot make you work over 13 hours.
