cav551:
fodenway:
I suppose it depends in what context you mean “better off”, and over what timescale. Whatever happens after March 29th, there will be big changes, challenges and opportunities. Some companies and individuals will no doubt suffer financially, some will gain and others won’t see much difference. But “better off” shouldn’t just be measured in monetary terms, or be looked at just in the short term. The country as a whole needs to get itself into a positive frame of mind, accept that things are going to change, and grasp whatever opportunities are presented by leaving. We’ve seen the dilution of our self-determination and the decimation our manufacturing capacity, along with the transfer of many of our key companies into Foreign ownership over the last four decades - admittedly not all as a direct consequence of EU membership, but the EU Superstate ambition is still not yet fully realised. I wonder how much “better off” we in Britain would be if that day is allowed to come? Everyone will have their own opinion, and we’re all entitled to that, and no doubt there will always be differences of opinion. Only time will tell.The advocates of staying-in just will not shut up about money, money, money. Probably because that is all that matters to them, but money is not everything - as is so well put in Fodenway’s argument. There is so much more to Brexit than this constant: “Oh Lord, death and destruction, we will be worse off, the world will end for us”. No it won’t, when we come out from hiding behind behind mummy EU’s skirts and face up to the world, we will realise the bogey man is not going to get us. At the moment about the only thing we as a nation have a pride in is our armed forces, we have the opportunity to regain a pride in ourselves. We are going to do what we want and not what a bunch of foreigners want to push us around to do for their benefit. We can do this - and we will.
Of course it`s not just money. But there have ben so many misunderstandings and even lies that the monetary facts are worth discussing.
The fact that the lies were told before the vote doesnt make them irrelevant today either. Not recognizing a lie we fell for in the past makes us more susceptible in the future, doesnt it?
Money isn`t everything, agreed, but it helps in many ways:
How can a country with a smaller economy afford a competent Army?
A smaller economy means a higher proportion of our domestic income needs to be spent to just stand still with health and education, let alone improve things!
Are some individuals gaining and loosing at the moment and in the future?
Yes, youre right. Even in a falling market individuals can make money. Its worth noting that a turbulent market is full of chances to gain for some. Long term investors who wish to invest in companies equipment, and land etc wont like the uncertainty we now have, but those who buy and sell in the short term stand to gain. Those who invest to give US jobs are unhappy, whilst “investment betting” companies and hedge funds thrive in these times.
Decimation of our manufacturing?
Is that much related to our EU membership?
Whilst Thatcher was busy explaining how we could all wear red braces, and make a “services economy” country by selling insurance, and paying each other for coffees and hair-dressing, the rest of Europe went in a different direction. If all EU countries were in the same position that would be a valid point, and there is some truth in it, we cant ignore the rise of China, but blaming Brussels for Westminsters failings is a mistake.
Foreign ownership of companies is a problem, its true. And the EU could do more, Id agree. But we as a country are weaker than the EU. It is a global problem, NOT an EU problem, and leaving the EU will not change our position for the better. Maybe the EU will stand a better chance against international mega-corps than a split off country?
A “positive frame of mind”?
Works both ways, mate! 
Some of us aren`t moaning about how the EU are responsible for all our woes, and blaming them for everything. Some of us see the opportunities in the EU, while still accepting there are negatives, but work where we are to make the best of a less than perfect world.
“Dilution of self determination”?
A rich man will often have more choices than a poor man. A wealthy country will have more scope for action than a poorer one…sorry to mention money again, but in the real world it is important.
Look at the alternatives here:
As part of a large trading group, where we have voting rights, we have some choice, but do go with the majority. But that group has more influence than any individual element does.
When we leave we will still be a strong economy, but nowhere near with the clout of the EU.
“We are going to do what we want and not what a bunch of foreigners want to push us around to do for their benefit.”
We can do that in the future of course. But maybe a more realistic view is to recognise we are not a trading and diplomatic island, in spite of our geography.
In real life we all accept some costs to make overall gains. We accept we pay tax to get hospitals. In order to sell cars and services abroad, we accept imported goods and issue visas. It always has been that way, and outside ofa tiny isolationist economy wil continue to be so. Negotiating with other countries, and accepting that not every single deal is for our selfish profit is realistic, and is not being “pushed around”.
If you really think the EU are pushing weak little us around (which I don`t) how will we fare against the US and China etc in the future?
As noted already by Spardo we are not “diluted” by being part of the EU.
We have individual character in areas of the UK, Geordies aint Cockernies, or Taffies. Brits aint Kermies or Hermans.
I feel closer to a French or Spanish truck driver than I do to a British politician. There is more of a common viewpoint amongst drivers, than between drivers and investment bankers irrelevant of nationality.
Ive got pride in myself. Im pround to be British, and proud to be European too.
I don`t feel at all diluted or diminished by being part of an international trading group. Are our armed forces diluted by being part of NATO? Of course not. Are policy decisions reached by discussion, or are we being “pushed around” by the “foreigners”, the “Yanks” if a point goes against what is ideal for us?
When we leave I`ll make the most of it. Of course I will, but the walk into the future is better as part of a team, than as an individual.
