Anorak: Your comments about the 3MW raise interesting questions, like was the old ‘Belgian’ cab a 3MW after all?
As for the SP cab, I can see the sense in your argument about bringing the cab manufacture in-house.
Robert
robert1952:
Anorak: Your comments about the 3MW raise interesting questions, like was the old ‘Belgian’ cab a 3MW after all?..
Robert
On page 1 of this thread, there is a picture of the MW on the 1969 Brussels Show stand. It has the small headlamps, making it a 3MW. These 3MWs also seem to have a plain bumper and a V-section towing frame, while the 5MW, typically, has a stepped bumper and a rectangular towing frame.
Edit- the towing frame argument is wrong- maybe the V-section frame was a feature of 6-wheel chassis, while Euro 4x2 tractors had the plain one?
On page 2 of the thread, a phot entitled “Earls Court 1972” shows a 3MW.
[zb]
anorak:robert1952:
Anorak: Your comments about the 3MW raise interesting questions, like was the old ‘Belgian’ cab a 3MW after all?..
RobertOn page 1 of this thread, there is a picture of the MW on the 1969 Brussels Show stand. It has the small headlamps, making it a 3MW. These 3MWs also seem to have a plain bumper and a V-section towing frame, while the 5MW, typically, has a stepped bumper and a rectangular towing frame.
Edit- the towing frame argument is wrong- maybe the V-section frame was a feature of 6-wheel chassis, while Euro 4x2 tractors had the plain one?On page 2 of the thread, a phot entitled “Earls Court 1972” shows a 3MW.
We may have to take the 1972 pic on page 2 with a pinch of salt because it is a drawing 
. You may notice that the wheels look over-sized! However, immediately above it is a photo of it: can you tell more accurately from that? In a way, I rather hope your theory fits because it might tidy things up a bit 
, even if we do end up with a 3MW ‘European’! 
Robert
Looking closely at the other phots on page 2, all of the early Europeans have small lamps. The bumper/ towing frame 4/6 wheel distinction is as I suggested, IE four wheelers have the stepped bumper. The fly in the ointment is that Mr. Rietsma calls these cabs 5MW. I think we need ERF Peterborough to clarify things.
[zb]
anorak:
Looking closely at the other phots on page 2, all of the early Europeans have small lamps. The bumper/ towing frame 4/6 wheel distinction is as I suggested, IE four wheelers have the stepped bumper. The fly in the ointment is that Mr. Rietsma calls these cabs 5MW. I think we need ERF Peterborough to clarify things.
Yes indeed! We appear to have reached a crucial point in our efforts to make sense of the ERF ‘Europeans’ in their various guises… Robert
Putting aside the 7MW cab for now, I’ve done a bit of homework on the 5MW references:
First I checked through all my cuttings, brochures, scans and other evidence files to find mentions of the MW cabs. The only time 5MWs are mentioned are in Wobbe Reitma’s articles where all round-front MW cabs from 1969 (with set back wheels) are called 5MWs; also Jerry Cooke in his Arabian Nights article, but then I think all Trans Arabia’s were 5MWs so that’s probably OK; then Phil Reed in his interview with Jack Cook in Motor Transport (May 20th '77) refers to all the pre-7MW cabbed units as 5MWs.
Peter Davies in his The World’s Best Oil Engined Lorry tends to use ‘MW’ as his descriptions, but does call Cadwallader’s L-reg unit a 5MW cabbed lorry on p76.
Pat Kennett is careful to use no numbers at all to describe the various MW cabs in World Trucks - ERF.
Dai Davies tends to stick to MW and appears accurately to identify a Belgian 3MW on p151 but inaccurately describes a pair of 7MW cabs as 5MWs on p144.
Other books - 60 Years On, 80 Years on, British & European Trucks of the 1970s, and Truck Recognition all remain vague, using terms like Motor Panels, or MW.
I hope this helps. Robert
We need to see a scan of the document ERF Peterborough was citing when he posted the identifying features of the various models. Otherwise it’s just he says/she says.
[zb]
anorak:
We need to see a scan of the document ERF Peterborough was citing when he posted the identifying features of the various models. Otherwise it’s just he says/she says.
As we have reached a particularly crucial and interesting point in our quest for ERF MW identification here, I have sent PMs to various likely parties in pursuit of clarification. We live in hope. Robert
I have now received a very useful communication from E R F (Peterboro’) who recognizes that we are at a crucial point and is able to reassure us that we are absolutely on the right track vis-a-vis the 3MW / 5MW cabs (‘Everything you’ve posted tallies with the information I have,’ he says). However, he cautions that there appears to be no sudden morphing point or cut-off point. Rather, there was an overlap and the change was gradual (a bit like all the other models of that time, then!). He suggests that ERF may even have been using up old stock - something John could perhaps help us with.
E R F also reminds us that there was no A-series cab per se, but that the A-series used the 7LV cab. I think we knew that but need to take more care with our descriptions!
More importantly, E R F will scan relevant docs and diagrams for us, but this will take time. If there are any specific vehicles we want verifying, he can have them traced in the records but this will again take time.
I am inclined now to give E R F the time and space to respond in his own way. I notice too, that John3300 is active again on other threads, so we can - as I said before - live in hope!
Robert
PS - Another point E R F has made to me is that the master parts manuals only show one illustration for the cabs - for example the European market and hot climate MW cabs are illustrated by one frame of each cab depicted as a 4MW. He says that parts for the 5MW have to be identified within the written lists and are not illustrated; and that the same applies to the MV - just one 3MV is illustrated. E R F says that he can also scan the Technical Service Bullitins relating to the steel cabs, but this may take him a little longer as there are hundreds to go through, but they do detail some of the more major changes.
E R F can scan the parts manuals for us, and will try to do it this weekend. Robert
robert1952:
PS - Another point E R F has made to me is that the master parts manuals only show one illustration for the cabs - for example the European market and hot climate MW cabs are illustrated by one frame of each cab depicted as a 4MW. He says that parts for the 5MW have to be identified within the written lists and are not illustrated; and that the same applies to the MV - just one 3MV is illustrated. E R F says that he can also scan the Technical Service Bullitins relating to the steel cabs, but this may take him a little longer as there are hundreds to go through, but they do detail some of the more major changes.E R F can scan the parts manuals for us, and will try to do it this weekend. Robert
Can he confirm that an early forward-axle, small-headlamp wide cab one is a 2MW? 
It must have been a nightmare selling the things. The salesman probably just said, “Describe what you want. We’ll see what bits we have lying around and I’ll try to get it thrown together before something changes.”
[zb]
anorak:robert1952:
PS - Another point E R F has made to me is that the master parts manuals only show one illustration for the cabs - for example the European market and hot climate MW cabs are illustrated by one frame of each cab depicted as a 4MW. He says that parts for the 5MW have to be identified within the written lists and are not illustrated; and that the same applies to the MV - just one 3MV is illustrated. E R F says that he can also scan the Technical Service Bullitins relating to the steel cabs, but this may take him a little longer as there are hundreds to go through, but they do detail some of the more major changes.E R F can scan the parts manuals for us, and will try to do it this weekend. Robert
Can he confirm that an early forward-axle, small-headlamp wide cab one is a 2MW?
It must have been a nightmare selling the things. The salesman probably just said, “Describe what you want. We’ll see what bits we have lying around and I’ll try to get it thrown together before something changes.”
Let’s be patient! If ERF was operating like an open-all-hours corner shop, so what: it’s business! BTW, I’ve heard from John3300 who is doing some research of his own at the moment.
Let’s just trust the process. As I’ve said before, we’re all in this together!
By the way, E R F has sent me a message refining the information that we have: he reminds us that the domestic cab for the A’ Series tractor unit chassis was the 7LV, but for export it was usually specified with the 5MW cab which allowed more room for the more powerful engines, for example the ■■■■■■■ 335hp.
E R F reports that he has never seen or heard of a 3MW cab fitted to an A’ Series chassis, only the old chassis, and that one must wonder if another part of the 3 to 5 MW transition was the need for larger engine accommodation, hence the different engine box and improved air intakes available on the 5. E R F also comments that there must be a reason that the 5MW cabbed units used the original A’ Series chassis right to the end in 1977, well after Jack Cooke had revised it for the B’ Series.
My own take on this was simply that the NGC 7MW was the expensive, heavy-duty fully-equipped long-haul ERF of the time; the 5MW-cabbed version was more of an export vehicle for domestic work. What I mean by this is that the 5MW / A-series was a great export vehicle for operators doing northern Europe (ie Benelux); but the NGC / 7MW was a real TIR long-hauler designed for trans-Europe, trans-Arabia et al. Thank God I chose to write a book only about the NGC 7MW, or I’d now be in the deep do-do!! Robert
On a specific note, I asked ‘E R F’ about his reference to the last ever MW cabbed ERF, because it chimed with my knowledge of the five Falcon Freight NGC 7MWs of which I have a black & white photo-scan.
‘E R F’ consulted his archivist friend and through their dedication and patience they were able to confirm the following information about the various final ERF MW cabs:
It is confirmed - 31927 was a 7MW and was the very last MW ever built.
The last 5MW was 31490 a model MCC360.240 (64CU220) Tractor Unit despatched ex Sun Works on the 15th of April 1976 to WT ■■■■■ Haulage Ltd. via HLH Commercials.
The last 4MW was a LHD model MPR360.060 (64R205) Tractor Unit, despatched ex Sun Works on the 29th of Jan 1974 to the Chinese Petroleum Co. via Dunne Spencer.
I am deeply grateful to them for this revelation. Incidentally, I have re-posted the info regarding the NGC 7MW on the European 1975 thread. Robert
“The 3MW draws its engine air from under the bunk,” ERF Peterborough said, on the RHD 5MW thread. The 1972 CM article says the initial vehicles suffered from a “draughty ride”, and mentions cabs being replaced. This is further evidence that the first Europeans were 3MWs- if the air intake was inside the cab, the air would have to get into the cab, past the door seals, around the steering column, through the pedal box etc. An external air intake would alleviate the draughts, and that is what the 5MW had, according to the man from Peterborough.
[zb]
anorak:
“The 3MW draws its engine air from under the bunk,” ERF Peterborough said, on the RHD 5MW thread. The 1972 CM article says the initial vehicles suffered from a “draughty ride”, and mentions cabs being replaced. This is further evidence that the first Europeans were 3MWs- if the air intake was inside the cab, the air would have to get into the cab, past the door seals, around the steering column, through the pedal box etc. An external air intake would alleviate the draughts, and that is what the 5MW had, according to the man from Peterborough.
Your’e onto the case Anorak: see ERF’s post this afternoon on the LHD 5MW thread! Robert
would any MW enthuisast like to check out the Scammell crusader sleeper cab air fillter mounting. the MW cab just isnt cut away.
don t ask how long it took to change a filter
robert1952:
…E R F reports that he has never seen or heard of a 3MW cab fitted to an A’ Series chassis, only the old chassis, and that one must wonder if another part of the 3 to 5 MW transition was the need for larger engine accommodation, hence the different engine box and improved air intakes available on the 5…
My own research has proved this not to be the case.
The A’ Series vehicles supplied to Belgium in 1971 were indeed fitted with the 3MW cab, so obviously the transition from 3 to 5 did NOT involve larger engine accommodation as I thoughr, although the two types do have a different bonnet inside the cab - probably to reduce internal noise?.
[zb]
anorak:
“The 3MW draws its engine air from under the bunk,” ERF Peterborough said, on the RHD 5MW thread. The 1972 CM article says the initial vehicles suffered from a “draughty ride”, and mentions cabs being replaced. This is further evidence that the first Europeans were 3MWs- if the air intake was inside the cab, the air would have to get into the cab, past the door seals, around the steering column, through the pedal box etc. An external air intake would alleviate the draughts, and that is what the 5MW had, according to the man from Peterborough.
The air intake on the 3MW was under the bunk - in the void space under the cab, not inside it.
Think of a B Series with a Jennings sleeper pod - it’s that layout, but the filter unit is enclosed.
Both the 3 and 5 MW cabs have a hatch in the bunk shelf (at least the ones local to me here do, and that’s what the MW manuals show) to allow access to the Coopers filter units, the difference on the 5MW is the raised intakes that are either side of the centre rear window and protrude into the bunk space - again shown in the parts manuals and fitted to the 5MW local to me. The 3MW does not have these. Next time I’m around both cabs I’ll take some photos to make it clearer.
I know this has been posted before, but it shows an A’ Series with 3MW cab.
There are colour photos of this vehicle amongst my Flickr photos, which have already been posted I think…
Many thanks ‘ERF’ that clears quite a few details up. Robert
A few photos to try and highlight some things…
The white & red cab is a 3MW.
The green & white cab is a 5MW.
3MW
5MW
I’ll take some internal photos next time I’m over there.
The engine air intake grilles are missing from the upper rear panel of the 5MW.
The rust holes are optional - even from New Zealand!.
Look closely - you will see all sorts of differences…
The rear corner panels are profiled differently at the bottom.
The wings are moulded different where the headlamps sit.
The lower rear panel… there are lots of differences you spot when the two cabs are side-by-side.