Watched a programme about Nissan in the North east recently.
Management and the workforce work together to solve problems.
I think that’s the difference from the 1960s and 70s when we all hated each other.
That’s why we’re selling more cars than at any time before.
The engineering problems we faced then, metals, electric currents causing body rot, oils that eat away at the metal, have mainly been solved - Cars don’t dissolve any more, engines, even petrol seem to last forever…
Just a shame we let the heavy truck industry go, for whatever arguable reason!
dieseldog999:
my memories or rusty scrap would be montegos,maxis and everything inbetween from bl…the japs are not now as good as everything else…they are everything else along with the rest of European car manufacturers,so apart from r and l rover,the uk vehicle industry is justifyably dead and buried…
Your ‘memories’ seem more like a selective example of the worst case scenarios of the direction which Austin Morris division went along.As opposed to better days before the cheap third rate zb boxes wether home produced or Jap crap imports.Meanwhile British v Jap in the real world being that selective reference is obviously allowed.
each to their own,at the end of the day every other manufacturer is still doing their bit,and bl for various reasons including the truck industry is down the pan…
a few years ago i wanted to buy a 7-5 ton high roof chassis cab,automatic,with a pto to power a tilt/slide recovery body i was having made.i either wanted a daf,or a mercedes atego…the chassis cab was costing £32k from daf…i need to order the truck,get it delivered to daf,send it to allison to get the manual gearbox removed and have a automatic gearbox fitted,it was then to go somewhere else to have the pto fitted,then it was going to hatcher components i think,or somewhere similar to have the standard roof cut off,and replaced with a high roof…6 weeks delivery for the truck to be in the daf dealership ,then no timescale for all the modifications…i.e months in the future…on the other hand,the atego was costing £28k.and would be shipped across to the dealers in uk within 30 days with all modifications to spec straight from the factory…bit of a no brainer,and i rest my case…isnt it a shame they lost 2wice otherwise we would all still have british trucks built in britain…called mercedes.
I was going to say you could get all that ex works with a Merc.
The demise of the British Lorry is down to one thing, the must join the common market at all costs tactics employed by the various governments involved.
If DeGaulle had been successful in his attempts to veto our joining then British Industry would still be the envy of the world.
3300John:
Hiya…whats this abysmall workforce thing diesel dog…theres no finer workmanship than in the 60,70,80,in british industry
there s plenty of people will back me up. anything you wanted making could be made in GT Britain. whats happend since i don,t know
but don,t say iy was the workers. when i worked at Jennings on the wood and sheet metal side anything you asked for could be made.
in the trim shop seats was covered and horsebox interiors was fitted out like you never saw…everything hand made.
i ve worked at Stanlow refinery since 2004 the stories of what machine workers have made is increadabel all foreigners of course .
my first foreman was a panel beater after he retired he became a silversmith. these a write up about him on the ERF MW site i put
on last year his work is up there with the best. abysmall does not apply to many craftsmen. you mention Volvo, the cab quality on a F88
is disgusting. F88s that have stood under cover have rotted away…Volvo F88 Brakes just forget the subject not even in the same class as
ERF and Foden…please don t blame the British craftsman most of them had their hands tied. when Jennings closed down 2 workers
retired from the trim shop the 3 others walked straight into Rolls Royce at Crewe making seats. these men was making seats for ERF trucks
before been employed at Rolls Royce.i say if ERF could have come up with a good 250 bhp engine and a sleeper cab with a good heater
in the early 70,s and moved with he times they would have run the race with Volvo. operators just wanted to stay in the dark ages wanting
Gardner engines it was a night mare trying to sell ■■■■■■■ engines and Fuller gearboxes. change was coming and operators didn t want it.
Volvo was a cheap import with no credit to its name. but soon become a threat to British trucks.
John
british workmanship for the truck or car industry was garbage in build quality compared to everything else,apart from thet,then unions and workers themselves sealed their own fate.volvo and scania with the others at their back just breezed in and when there was an option for better trucks,more and more took it,with every one being a nail in the coffin for the vehicle industry in Britain. basic and crudely built scrap compared to the foriegners,hence down the pan for Britain.if they were good quality and a conciencious workforce,then Britain would still have a motor industry. land rover and mini being the exception,but every design part that they use is antiquated,or a electronig bag of crap…minis still use the head problem engine they’ve always used…ldv vans used the vm Italian diesel enging that was the most unreliable overheated engine since they stuck it into a rangerover in 1985…if you look at an older range rover or disco then its morris marina door handles,montego window buttons,mirror switches etc…they always had a logic consisting of…were going to make a new car,we have 10 million old switches in stock,lets make a car based on that switch. any older rr or lr would have door gaps you could stick your fingers in.i had a garage /car sales for years,and with the warranty companies,then if it was a british 4x4 then the warranty costs double to that of a shogun /landcruiser etc,for the simple reason that british built vehicles were badly built to standards that were unacceptable by any other manufacturer i.e.the japs.like trucks,rr and lr have their following,but the build quality is terrible,similar to the attitude of the average factory worker here… you know the story when you drive into gettipped,and the forkies disappear,and your waiting ages,british logic,how little can I do and how unhelpfull a jobsworth can I be for as much wages as possible…then bleat when my company goes down the pan.
dieseldog999 when the first Japanese motors first came on sale they were so bad that they made the Austin /Morris 1100s and Marina’s look like world beaters the bodies used to rot far more than any British built car of the time but they did eventually get it correct and they are now as good as anything else.
cheers Johnnie
in your dreams johnnie boy…
my memories or rusty scrap would be montegos,maxis and everything inbetween from bl…the japs are not now as good as everything else…they are everything else along with the rest of European car manufacturers,so apart from r and l rover,the uk vehicle industry is justifyably dead and buried…
I take that you are not old enough to remember the first Datsun cars as the first Skoda’s were better body wise
cheers Johnnie
Thanks for the varied responses, company directors, shareholders and managers make decisions daily , on all issues including wether a company should continue to trade, cease trading, the one assumption from these responses is that MAN and Paccar must have put a great deal on both tables for ERF and Foden owners to walk away and say thankyou that ll do nicely.Im sure that some of the workforce ( directors to assemblers) thought more could have been done to keep them trading.
I wonder if part of the problem was the sheer longevity of the trucks that both companies produced so repeat orders were not forthcoming as much as those who bought overseas trucks? The companies that I worked for ran Fodens from new well into double figures regarding age, I had one eight legger for 11 years and it was then sold on and did several more years with an o.d. and a couple were still with the original drivers after nearly 20 years. Both ERF and Foden trucks were difficult to wear out, the cabs didn’t rot for one thing and they were simple and fairly cheap to repair.
I had a similar thought pete, more old ERFs than Foden seem to be on the roads today , did they produce more? I don’t know . Driving along the A50 between Sandbach and Holmes Chapel on Tuesday theres a fairground company on the right and they have a great collection of ERFs ,and I presume road legal looking at their superb condition.
chrisv:
I had a similar thought pete, more old ERFs than Foden seem to be on the roads today , did they produce more? I don’t know . Driving along the A50 between Sandbach and Holmes Chapel on Tuesday theres a fairground company on the right and they have a great collection of ERFs ,and I presume road legal looking at their superb condition.
They will be road legal no doubt, the fair that comes to Matlock a few times during the year uses several Foden eight wheelers. Of course a ‘plus point’ with Foden, tipper’s especially, was the extra payload compared to ERF and Sed Ak etc. Our Fodens carried 3/4 of a ton more than the Sed Ak 400’s with similar engines and bodies and that was the difference that made sure no more Sed Ak’s appeared in the fleet and they were sold on after just six years! So hauliers tended to hang onto Fodens for the weight saving alone. When my Sed Ak was due for replacing I mentioned to the TM that it must have earned its money after six years, his reply was that every time it went out loaded it lost 3/4 of a tonne and, as loads were costed out at 20 tonnes, (it only carried 19.25) it hadn’t earned anything really!
gingerfold:
The company I work for is a former ERF operator and as far as the owner is concerned it was the ■■■■■■■ engine that was the main selling point for ERF. We have some MANs…suffice it to say that we will definitely not be having anymore.
We have some MANs too nothing but problems and the Dafs we run aren`t up to much either problem after problem
We have Eight DAF 105s, four DAF 85CFs and three MANs. We had six MANs acquired second hand between May 2014 and October 2014, they were cheap, and don’t we know why now. Three of them have expired with major engine problems. and I mean major, reminiscent of the old headless wonder Leylands!. We are stuck with the other three for the time being. The DAfs in the main are Ok, it’s usually electrical problems when they go wrong, reminiscent of ERF in its heyday! Had a DAF 85 fail with its electrics only last night at Abington Services on a timed delivery to Larkhall. Nothing really changes for the better where trucks are concerned, they still breakdown at the most inconvenient times and places.
The mindset of the “modern” haulier and driver has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. A lorry now has the same shelf-life of a laptop
Drivers expect to be controlled by a plook. Auto-boxes and electronic gizmos are the norm. Limiters have brought them together so they convoy it up the motorways with a mile an hour between them, following so close the can’t see the one in front’s brake-lights.
Forget them. Nothing would get me into one of those disgustin new Renaults. We have our memories of decent reliable British wagons that you could fix with a bit of ingenuity and always get home. We new we had done a days work the man’s way - no disrespect to lady drivers - just a phrase. Getting home, unloading your case, that wash and spruce up, leg- over and then the pub. Oh that dinner afterwards!
The Fodens, the ERFs, the Sedons, the Bristols et al will always appear on the Classic scene. Drivers wagons started to fall out of favour when the F86 started to creep into the country. Long live Trucknet. Jim.
Following on from my previous rant, When, say a F12 is disposed of abroad, the “natives” seem to keep them going on inferior roads, long,long distance, without diagnostics, laptops etc. How? Robert, or any other of our well travelled drivers - can you shed a light? Jim.
jmc jnr:
Following on from my previous rant, When, say a F12 is disposed of abroad, the “natives” seem to keep them going on inferior roads, long,long distance, without diagnostics, laptops etc. How? Robert, or any other of our well travelled drivers - can you shed a light? Jim.
Firstly, jmc jnr, I can’t fault your ‘rant’ - here here! As for older low-tech lorries, you are quite right in thinking that the natives of less-developed countries abroad manage to keep them going. The drivers almost invariably work in pairs and are nearly always good mechanics. In addition, transport in those countries is not over-legislated, just corrupt. I’m not sure which is worse, but I’m certain that my old Eurostar would still be on the road now if I lived in Sudan instead of England. As for your comment about truckshows: I’ll bet a pound to a pinch of camel ■■■■■ that in 30 years time there’ll still be ERFs and Fodens at events but I doubt if there’ll be any of the current generation of lorries because computers wear out quicker than Meccano! Cheers, Robert
gingerfold:
We have Eight DAF 105s, four DAF 85CFs and three MANs. We had six MANs acquired second hand between May 2014 and October 2014, they were cheap, and don’t we know why now. Three of them have expired with major engine problems. and I mean major, reminiscent of the old headless wonder Leylands!. We are stuck with the other three for the time being. The DAfs in the main are Ok, it’s usually electrical problems when they go wrong, reminiscent of ERF in its heyday! Had a DAF 85 fail with its electrics only last night at Abington Services on a timed delivery to Larkhall. Nothing really changes for the better where trucks are concerned, they still breakdown at the most inconvenient times and places.
We ran a large number of CF 4x2 units where i previously worked and the newer the vehicle the worse they were. They were in and out of the main dealers on a regular basis with abs/ebs faults ,adblue emissions faults and the autos were dreadful.If a driver started one of the autos up before letting it go through its checks all sorts of faults showed up, the few Scanias we ran were virtually fault free.They were all on the same double shifted work and they were serviced every 5 weeks , one of the best features on the Scanias was a dipstick ,no having to wait 15 minutes for the engine to cool down and give an oil reading on the dash or worse still having to tilt the cab . I had a D registered Foden in the early 90s and loved it (it had a 320 Gardner in it Carryfast) and it pulled like a train . Would it be possible to build a road legal lorry today without sensors just a straightforward engine with a manual gearbox ,a dipstick and abs that didnt go wrong everytime you switched trailers… oh and a lorry that didn`t need a mechanic with a laptop to repair it ■■?
ramone:
Would it be possible to build a road legal lorry today without sensors just a straightforward engine with a manual gearbox ,a dipstick and abs that didnt go wrong everytime you switched trailers...... oh and a lorry that didnt need a mechanic with a laptop to repair it ■■?
The problem is that such complicated electronic technology in engine management is probably essential now in meeting legislative requirements regarding emissions and operator expectations regarding fuel consumption.Things could probably be simplified in that regard with a change back to spark ignition and LPG fuelling.Instead of electronic controlled diesel injection systems and all the associated emissions crap.
As for ABS the Maxaret system was about as simple as it gets.
Returning to my “conked-out” DAF 85 at Abington Services on Wednesday evening, well what a saga that was. It was a failed alternator and of course with a modern truck everything else fails. Gone are the days when you could drive an AEC Mercury from London to Bolton with a failed alternator (daylight hours of course) as I once did. The repair people came out to him, jump started the DAF and took it 4 miles to their garage. Put a new alternator on, wrong one, took it off, found the correct one and fitted it. The breakdown happened at 4.15 pm, finally got going at 10.45 pm, got to the drop at 11.20 pm, for an 8.00 pm booking, we had been running very early as it happens. Earlier my mechanic had asked the driver (been with us a month, ex-Army lad) to look under the DAF to see if the fan belts had been thrown off. Poor lad didn’t know what a fan belt was and was looking in the glove box for them. And to top it all the repairers managed to lose the battery cover, so I went absolutely ballistic at them yesterday morning and told them they would be paying for a new one. Oh, the joys of transport.
ramone:
Would it be possible to build a road legal lorry today without sensors just a straightforward engine with a manual gearbox ,a dipstick and abs that didnt go wrong everytime you switched trailers...... oh and a lorry that didnt need a mechanic with a laptop to repair it ■■?
The problem is that such complicated electronic technology in engine management is probably essential now in meeting legislative requirements regarding emissions and operator expectations regarding fuel consumption.Things could probably be simplified in that regard with a change back to spark ignition and LPG fuelling.Instead of electronic controlled diesel injection systems and all the associated emissions crap.
As for ABS the Maxaret system was about as simple as it gets.
So i will try a diiferent approach , say i had a 1986 Scania and the engine blew up and i could buy a second hand one from a 2010 Scania could it be fit without the electronics and would it be legal?
gingerfold:
Returning to my “conked-out” DAF 85 at Abington Services on Wednesday evening, well what a saga that was. It was a failed alternator and of course with a modern truck everything else fails. Gone are the days when you could drive an AEC Mercury from London to Bolton with a failed alternator (daylight hours of course) as I once did. The repair people came out to him, jump started the DAF and took it 4 miles to their garage. Put a new alternator on, wrong one, took it off, found the correct one and fitted it. The breakdown happened at 4.15 pm, finally got going at 10.45 pm, got to the drop at 11.20 pm, for an 8.00 pm booking, we had been running very early as it happens. Earlier my mechanic had asked the driver (been with us a month, ex-Army lad) to look under the DAF to see if the fan belts had been thrown off. Poor lad didn’t know what a fan belt was and was looking in the glove box for them. And to top it all the repairers managed to lose the battery cover, so I went absolutely ballistic at them yesterday morning and told them they would be paying for a new one. Oh, the joys of transport.
At my last job i dealt with Main dealers from Daf ,Iveco ,Scania and Volvo and to be fair they were all very much the same .The only thing they all could do very well was produce ridiculously high bills. Breakdowns too were always long drawn out affairs with no urgency whatsoever. I would think that if a manufacturer could now produce a straightforward vehicle without the electronics, that could be repaired easily in a workshop of their own much like the old british vehicles could be then they would be on a winner.The problems lie with the restraints forced upon manufactureres to produce “clean” engines obviously the efficiency is something that all hauliers want, but are we being told the truth about emmissions or just being taxed on another level. I doubt very much that Foden or ERF could have survived alone and if they could what engine would they use?
ramone:
Would it be possible to build a road legal lorry today without sensors just a straightforward engine with a manual gearbox ,a dipstick and abs that didnt go wrong everytime you switched trailers...... oh and a lorry that didnt need a mechanic with a laptop to repair it ■■?
The problem is that such complicated electronic technology in engine management is probably essential now in meeting legislative requirements regarding emissions and operator expectations regarding fuel consumption.Things could probably be simplified in that regard with a change back to spark ignition and LPG fuelling.Instead of electronic controlled diesel injection systems and all the associated emissions crap.
As for ABS the Maxaret system was about as simple as it gets.
So i will try a diiferent approach , say i had a 1986 Scania and the engine blew up and i could buy a second hand one from a 2010 Scania could it be fit without the electronics and would it be legal?
You would need to do a lot of work to the top end, all the variable valve timing and such would need locking out, it would also need a drive for a mechanical fuel pump, so you would need to chop into the block to get to the timing gear.
being that selective reference is obviously allowed.
Three of them have expired with major engine problems. and I mean major, reminiscent of the old headless wonder Leylands!. 
We are stuck with the other three for the time being. The DAfs in the main are Ok, it’s usually electrical problems when they go wrong, reminiscent of ERF in its heyday! 
