ERF 'European' (1975)

[ineke]

robert1952:
:lol: Well I’m glad you posted those, Eric, because I have them both but I’m not allowed to post them. The Swiss picture is just a much better quality version of an image of posted much earlier in the thread, and it was photographed by John Douglas.

The first picture however, was taken by Wobbe Reitsma himself, when he went to interview its owner in the late '80s. Here’s the low-down on it: Bought new by Kooy of Barendrecht, Holland in 1974, DB-77-52 passed to Cess Willemstein, also of Barendrecht, in 1978. This photo, taken in 1986, shows the old girl with its cab newly painted and its ■■■■■■■ 335 recently overhauled. By this time it had done 1.3 million kms. Like most Dutch 7MWs it had acquired a plastic visor but this one had also acquired an extended bumper, fogs and spots, air horns and even a Michelin Man. The radiator boards probably protected against the bleak polder winds, but lent the wagon something of a Mad Max appearance. It remained in service as a spare unit until October 1989, when it was sold to a vehicle breaker.

The Dutch one, after 15 years of service, was definitely not a ‘shed’ like the Swiss one!

Any more NGCs in that collection? Robert

this picture was taken by my father, Cees Willemstein, at our house

[robert1952]

Ineke:

robert1952:
:lol: Well I’m glad you posted those, Eric, because I have them both but I’m not allowed to post them. The Swiss picture is just a much better quality version of an image of posted much earlier in the thread, and it was photographed by John Douglas.

The first picture however, was taken by Wobbe Reitsma himself, when he went to interview its owner in the late '80s. Here’s the low-down on it: Bought new by Kooy of Barendrecht, Holland in 1974, DB-77-52 passed to Cess Willemstein, also of Barendrecht, in 1978. This photo, taken in 1986, shows the old girl with its cab newly painted and its ■■■■■■■ 335 recently overhauled. By this time it had done 1.3 million kms. Like most Dutch 7MWs it had acquired a plastic visor but this one had also acquired an extended bumper, fogs and spots, air horns and even a Michelin Man. The radiator boards probably protected against the bleak polder winds, but lent the wagon something of a Mad Max appearance. It remained in service as a spare unit until October 1989, when it was sold to a vehicle breaker.

The Dutch one, after 15 years of service, was definitely not a ‘shed’ like the Swiss one!

Any more NGCs in that collection? Robert

this picture was taken by my father, Cees Willemstein, at our house

Dankje wel, Ineke! You have honoured us with this information. I have answered your PM. Robert

[kenb]

robert1952:

ERF-Continental:
Thank you Ken! My purpose was to learn how the way of doing business then was with regard
to the Dutch and Belgian ERF-dealers. I assume Sandbach was not happy with transfering ERF’s
towards M/E nor Africa…as their own sales ‘force’ then was more transparent in what they
did and more important NOT did. At CDB you should have had Jean-Gilbert Denonville, Eddy
Deleers or Michel Hansquine as your counterpart on the sales-table…they were hungry for $

I can’t think why ERF would have any resistance to Middle-East sales, given that plenty of ERFs went out to the Arabian Peninsula, mostly it seems to British operators doing ‘internals’. In 1976, when Trans Arabia was set up between S Jones and Bin Zagr, the 5MWs / 7MWs (NGCs) were just reaching the end of their production lives. Maybe ERF wanted to push the B-series. Remember that S Jones converted a number of 8-wheelers to 6x4 tractors and fitted them with brand new LHD B-series European cabs, once they had procured as many LHD 5MWs and 7MWs (NGCs) as they could lay hands on. I rather suspect that whatever happened to frustrate Trans Arabia’s acquisition of vehicles (if indeed that actually occurred - we have only the half-truths and gossip on this), was probably down to personal disagreements between men and if this is the case it is of little consequence and none of our business. If it was really to do with ERF’s inability to produce enough LHD units on time, then why were they so easily able to supply companies like Taseco in the Gulf? It doesn’t make sense. I see no point in seeking conspiracy theories forty years after the dust has settled! Robert

I think as far as S Jones and Trans arabia and 8 wheeler conversations etc it was all about cost - the vast majority of our work was not travelling hundreds of miles but within a 50 miles radius of Jeddah so why buy new stuff when you can put good second hand stuff together at half the cost or less - typical English haulier thinking - like the LV 's that we first took - the work and money they earned was fantastic - we were earning SR. 2400( £400)a day doing no more than 60 miles - what were they earning in the UK then £300 a week!? Kenb

[robert1952]

Kenb:

robert1952:

ERF-Continental:
Thank you Ken! My purpose was to learn how the way of doing business then was with regard
to the Dutch and Belgian ERF-dealers. I assume Sandbach was not happy with transfering ERF’s
towards M/E nor Africa…as their own sales ‘force’ then was more transparent in what they
did and more important NOT did. At CDB you should have had Jean-Gilbert Denonville, Eddy
Deleers or Michel Hansquine as your counterpart on the sales-table…they were hungry for $

I can’t think why ERF would have any resistance to Middle-East sales, given that plenty of ERFs went out to the Arabian Peninsula, mostly it seems to British operators doing ‘internals’. In 1976, when Trans Arabia was set up between S Jones and Bin Zagr, the 5MWs / 7MWs (NGCs) were just reaching the end of their production lives. Maybe ERF wanted to push the B-series. Remember that S Jones converted a number of 8-wheelers to 6x4 tractors and fitted them with brand new LHD B-series European cabs, once they had procured as many LHD 5MWs and 7MWs (NGCs) as they could lay hands on. I rather suspect that whatever happened to frustrate Trans Arabia’s acquisition of vehicles (if indeed that actually occurred - we have only the half-truths and gossip on this), was probably down to personal disagreements between men and if this is the case it is of little consequence and none of our business. If it was really to do with ERF’s inability to produce enough LHD units on time, then why were they so easily able to supply companies like Taseco in the Gulf? It doesn’t make sense. I see no point in seeking conspiracy theories forty years after the dust has settled! Robert

I think as far as S Jones and Trans arabia and 8 wheeler conversations etc it was all about cost - the vast majority of our work was not travelling hundreds of miles but within a 50 miles radius of Jeddah so why buy new stuff when you can put good second hand stuff together at half the cost or less - typical English haulier thinking - like the LV 's that we first took - the work and money they earned was fantastic - we were earning SR. 2400( £400)a day doing no more than 60 miles - what were they earning in the UK then £300 a week!? Kenb

Ah! So it was all about S Jones / Trans Arabia being a shrewd haulier, rather than about ERF being an inadequate supplier! Thanks for your insight Ken. Robert

[kenb]

robert1952:

Kenb:

robert1952:

ERF-Continental:
Thank you Ken! My purpose was to learn how the way of doing business then was with regard
to the Dutch and Belgian ERF-dealers. I assume Sandbach was not happy with transfering ERF’s
towards M/E nor Africa…as their own sales ‘force’ then was more transparent in what they
did and more important NOT did. At CDB you should have had Jean-Gilbert Denonville, Eddy
Deleers or Michel Hansquine as your counterpart on the sales-table…they were hungry for $

I can’t think why ERF would have any resistance to Middle-East sales, given that plenty of ERFs went out to the Arabian Peninsula, mostly it seems to British operators doing ‘internals’. In 1976, when Trans Arabia was set up between S Jones and Bin Zagr, the 5MWs / 7MWs (NGCs) were just reaching the end of their production lives. Maybe ERF wanted to push the B-series. Remember that S Jones converted a number of 8-wheelers to 6x4 tractors and fitted them with brand new LHD B-series European cabs, once they had procured as many LHD 5MWs and 7MWs (NGCs) as they could lay hands on. I rather suspect that whatever happened to frustrate Trans Arabia’s acquisition of vehicles (if indeed that actually occurred - we have only the half-truths and gossip on this), was probably down to personal disagreements between men and if this is the case it is of little consequence and none of our business. If it was really to do with ERF’s inability to produce enough LHD units on time, then why were they so easily able to supply companies like Taseco in the Gulf? It doesn’t make sense. I see no point in seeking conspiracy theories forty years after the dust has settled! Robert

I think as far as S Jones and Trans arabia and 8 wheeler conversations etc it was all about cost - the vast majority of our work was not travelling hundreds of miles but within a 50 miles radius of Jeddah so why buy new stuff when you can put good second hand stuff together at half the cost or less - typical English haulier thinking - like the LV 's that we first took - the work and money they earned was fantastic - we were earning SR. 2400( £400)a day doing no more than 60 miles - what were they earning in the UK then £300 a week!? Kenb

Ah! So it was all about S Jones / Trans Arabia being a shrewd haulier, rather than about ERF being an inadequate supplier! Thanks for your insight Ken. Robert

Robert - Absolutly right we were there to make money and quite frankly there was never any question what and when ERF could supply and certainly after those 2 new C series 6x4 came and the reliability facter came into play we looked at Mack The UK agent in Manchester sold them on the basis that you could take monkeys out of the trees and they could easily drive them - well we had highly paid british drivers who killed them one by one - that’s a different story - the main issue was the engine brake system ie ERF had jake brake and Mack had a copy that operated differently and had less tolerance on engine speed and when you could engage - valve float came into it and the Pistons ended up in the sump in pieces - this they did not tell us and it took me to completly shame Mack by parking them up outside the office gathering dust to the point that others in the market were asking questions - all of a sudden they cam to the table and new engines were flown in and fitted.
When we brought in the Philippine drivers they were used to them and there were neorealism issues - interestingly Dave Anslow never blew his up even after a very interesting brake system failure with a 60 ton lump on a multi wheel low loader for an American company between Taif and abha in the mountains - he had a runaway - the American travelling with him had jumped off as told by dave who was stood on the fuel tank/step about to jump and let her go - he steered the truck into some shale/sand on the side of the road and hey presto she started to slow down - I think he spent 2days there letting it cool off and winding up all the brakes - the failure had been sand in an air valve that allowed all the air to release.
Interesting - I did not work for S Jones before going to Saudi - I worked for one of there customers and had quite a number of vehicles on contract hire but had been close to them for a number of years and I was aware there were issues with new ERF supply because most of there allocation was going into there own fleet rather than being sold in the open market and in fact most there sales trucks that they did sell went to own account operators and there completion hauliers bought from other ERF dealers.

Kenbroster.

[robert1952]

Thanks for that Ken. Was Dave Anslow driving his 7MW (NGC) when that incident with the brakes took place? Robert

[kenb]

robert1952:
Thanks for that Ken. Was Dave Anslow driving his 7MW (NGC) when that incident with the brakes took place? Robert

No as said he was driving a Mack fleet 116 if I am correct with spare hung on the front - so he could shunt the locals out of the way !!!
Again interesting we bought a White 6x4 tractor unit and low bed from one of our customers - this thing was a speed monster - I think it had a Cat engine with a straight 6 speed box with a 4 speed transfer box - in other words it had 24 forward and 4 reverse gears - ■■■■ did it go - our customer had bought it for a contract that they had in the south and they thought they could do the weekly servicing of this site in Al Masane nr the Yemen boarder using a local driver - he blew most of the tyres off on its first trip and we were asked to store it and eventually I did a deal for it.

Ken b

[robert1952]

A new feast! ‘Wirminmerlin’ has recently posted new, as yet unseen, pictures of ERF NGCs on a new thread (Trans Arabia / S Jones). I re-post them here, with grateful thanks to Wirminmerlin for sharing them with us, and for sharing his experiences & memories too! Robert

[robert1952]

Clutching at straws here, but I don’t suppose any of you ex-‘internals’ wallahs know if Taseco of Dammam had any 7MWs (NGCs) in their massive ERF fleet… Robert

[erf-continental]

I had a closer look at the drivers handbook and found out that ‘only’ Fuller RT/RTO 9515
and RT/RTO 9509 were discussed. Not that I am/was worried you drivers don’t cope with
other variations…

[robert1952]

ERF-Continental:
I had a closer look at the drivers handbook and found out that ‘only’ Fuller RT/RTO 9515
and RT/RTO 9509 were discussed. Not that I am/was worried you drivers don’t cope with
other variations…

This is a very good point, A-J. I remember noticing this detail when I first acquired my driver’s handbook, and then forgot about it. I would imagine that the 15-speeder was an option for heavy haulage applications (perhaps that Cauvas 6x4 unit in France had one, who knows?). At this point in time I know of no units with the 15-speed 'box in, BUT some of these ambiguous gear-sticks that I’ve been mentioning recently, just might be 15-speeders (all of them, even!), which I think is probably the point you were making! Robert

[john_west]

Hi Robert,

This was my era in Dammam. I knew a lot of people in Taseco. They came from nowhere in about '82 to be a massive haulier on the local scene, working of course for Aramco. Mainly Brit management.

My memories of the trucks are that they were all day cab c series. However I seem to have read that some were sleepers. I don’t remember the sleepers. I remember feeling sorry for the drivers - not even air conditioning!

I don’t remember any other style of cab, but Merlin’s your man. He worked for them and managed the transport, along with a guy called Colin Powell.

John

[robert1952]

This appeared in Nov/Dec 2014 Classic Truck in one of Wobbe Reitsma’s regular articles for the magazine. Actually, I have had a photo-scan of this French unit - 3987RM50 - for a long time, on the understanding that I would not post it on the internet, which I have honoured.

I am delighted to see that he has now published it, and that it is at least now safe to reproduce this fragment here for all to enjoy. It must have been a particularly poignant find for Wobbe, because he was writing about NGCs for the REVS magazine and just happened to chance upon this glorious old girl in a corner of his holiday! Needless to say, he took the photograph. Enjoy it. Robert

PS Here’s a nice, clear version of it:

[PICTURES removed]

[tiptop495]

Hey Robert, never liked to meet those dark blue Renault R4’s (Les Courtants Bleus)

Eric,

[robert1952]

tiptop495:
Hey Robert, never liked to meet those dark blue Renault R4’s (Les Courtants Bleus)

Eric,

No! Not the Gendarmerie ones! Those Renault 4s weren’t very nice to drive either: they lurched like Transcons on corners and you had to use an umbrella for a gear-stick. Sacre bleu, un paraplui! Robert

[robert1952]

Incidentally, we know nothing about 3987RM50: who operated it, where in France it was operated etc. If the picture jogs anyone’s memory in France, please tell us what you know! Robert

[erf-continental]

Good to have her alive again. Quettehou is a small village close to Cherbourg in
the departement of Manche, linked by the last “50” in the registration. What is
more or less known is the period of 1975-1986 because of the grab-handles and
the missing mirror, for which you easily get booked by the police.

[robert1952]

ERF-Continental:
Good to have her alive again. Quettehou is a small village close to Cherbourg in
the departement of Manche, linked by the last “50” in the registration. What is
more or less known is the period of 1975-1986 because of the grab-handles and
the missing mirror, for which you easily get booked by the police.

I would imagine that it parked up, out of service. Robert

[erf-continental]

Robert, I agree, as I now have a better look with your ‘new’ picture.

The batteries were removed/nicked, mind further the indicators.

Perhaps Philippe (now) can assist?

[kenb]

Saviem:

mandator:
Indeed guys it was a family firm and I was there for years in my spare time as an enthusiast!
The bus company started way back before second World War, founded by Florent Cannaerts situated at Willebroek, a town west of Mechelen.
After hostilities the son, Jozef, joins the management and he starts two companies MEBA (running the bus route Mechelen-Boom-Antwerp) and DEBA running the route Dendermonde-Boom-Antwerp. Main bus manufacturer in service in those years was Miesse, equipped with Gardner LW and LX engines.
Nŵext to the bus fleet was an extensive coach fleet with Miesse-Gardner and Desot bodies. They even run a service Zeebrugge - Calcutta for a British travel agency in the sixties!

On the truck front they had a partnership with Transports Trois Fontaines SA running Miesse trucks, also with Gardner engines. In the seventies he started another company Trupaco, for import of Gardner engines and bus & truck spare parts.

Evening all, mandator , totally correct, and your last paragraph did a lot of business with my friend Paul Sykes of Barnsley. The British Travel Agent was Thomas Cook, and that business deserves a thread of its own!

Back to the European ERFs, and just a little “meat on the flesh” regarding Trans Arabia…

Joint venture company between S Jones Investments, (Channel Islands), 28/34 Hill Street , Saint Hellier, Jersey, and Abdullah and Said MO, Binz Agr Co, PO Box209, Jeddah Saudi Arabia.

Operational base, PO Box 2389, Jeddah, The fleet also included Mack R serie, and DMs, (including a tri drive). How many Kenworth K100s were run I do not know, but there was certainly one coffin cab! As well as the LVs, and B Serie.

The accounts are somewhat “difficult” to analyse…but then David Hughes was a superb accountant…but there would seem to be an interest from OCL.

Fascinating company…fascinating thread…

I will remember tose misty Belgian mornings so well, as I enjoy my nightcap Bollinger…

Cheerio for now.

Comment by Ken Broster. Director & G M of Trans Arabia 1976 onwards updated Oct 2014

Trust the Bollinger was good!?

There was No involvement by OCL in Trans Arabia creation etc P&O became a customer in 1978/9 on their leaving Saramat Trucking

David Hughes accounting - ask the S Jones pensioners about that - there pension funds were used inappropriately - I transferred 13years of previous company - gone - what a mistake
M e Jones was and is not amused by what went .

Who’s magic!! And crazy figures dreaming of the fancy state of of the ark ERF dealership premises in Aldridge brought the whole company down - only one man in my view
Good luck