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robert1952:
Ah-ha! So the NGC was possibly only a stop-gap in the narrow sense that it served as a test-bed for tilting cabs, other than which it remained a fully discrete model in its own right! Robert
Only a guess, but one thing must be remembered when analysing the seemingly-illogical decisions of the bosses of the firms of the past: they were a lot less daft than us, otherwise we would all be motor industry supremos ourselves. The best we can do is work out why things happened.
Only a guess, but one thing must be remembered when analysing the seemingly-illogical decisions of the bosses of the firms of the past: they were a lot less daft than us, otherwise we would all be motor industry supremos ourselves. The best we can do is work why things happened.
[/quote]
Anorak, a very true statement, and perhaps worthy of some detailed reflection.
The ERF SP cab was arguably one of the most creative, and functional cab designs of its time. Cheap to produce, cheap to maintain, and providing a good work place. What more could anybody wish for?
But lets remember the words of Merrick Taylor, MD of Motor Panels, spoken to the press at the `81 UK show…(and I paraphrase)," In 1972, when we showed the Transcontinental Sleeper, our ideas were treated with derision…yet by 1975 both Foden, and ERF were using versions of this cab".
In `81 Taylor was launching the "Hemi-Hi Tech Concept cab. Designed in conjunction with Ogle, projected for the 90s, but scheduled for build in the mid 80s. Motor Panels were pushing a lightweight construction of steel frame with aluminium panels. Strong, but only 50% of the weight of a comparable steel or SMC structure.
Very similar in construction to the C40 Ogle design for the T45 Leyland range. I remember the hydraulic lowering front bumper, functioning in direct relation to speed, and the modular clip on instruments, rhd,lhd, centre steer…no problem sir! Plus the airfoil roof, giving spectacular inside living space.
The cab concept was directly aimed at the KD, and CKD markets, and Taylor saw growth in the Southern Hemisphere, as opposed to Western Europe.
But for ERF the SMC process and the SP structure really was a good move.
Cheerio for now.
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Saviem:
Only a guess, but one thing must be remembered when analysing the seemingly-illogical decisions of the bosses of the firms of the past: they were a lot less daft than us, otherwise we would all be motor industry supremos ourselves. The best we can do is work why things happened.
Anorak, a very true statement, and perhaps worthy of some detailed reflection.
The ERF SP cab was arguably one of the most creative, and functional cab designs of its time. Cheap to produce, cheap to maintain, and providing a good work place. What more could anybody wish for?
But lets remember the words of Merrick Taylor, MD of Motor Panels, spoken to the press at the `81 UK show…(and I paraphrase)," In 1972, when we showed the Transcontinental Sleeper, our ideas were treated with derision…yet by 1975 both Foden, and ERF were using versions of this cab".
In `81 Taylor was launching the "Hemi-Hi Tech Concept cab. Designed in conjunction with Ogle, projected for the 90s, but scheduled for build in the mid 80s. Motor Panels were pushing a lightweight construction of steel frame with aluminium panels. Strong, but only 50% of the weight of a comparable steel or SMC structure.
Very similar in construction to the C40 Ogle design for the T45 Leyland range. I remember the hydraulic lowering front bumper, functioning in direct relation to speed, and the modular clip on instruments, rhd,lhd, centre steer…no problem sir! Plus the airfoil roof, giving spectacular inside living space.
The cab concept was directly aimed at the KD, and CKD markets, and Taylor saw growth in the Southern Hemisphere, as opposed to Western Europe.
But for ERF the SMC process and the SP structure really was a good move.
Cheerio for now.
[/quote]
I agree that the SP cab was a good cab. But I can’t understand what Merrick Taylor meant: the Motor Panels Transcontinental cab shown in '72 was based on the Mark 5 cab which had a distinctly different shape from the Mark 4 (ERF’s 7MW). Foden used that Mark 5, as he said, but ERF didn’t - or have I missed something? Robert
Refering to the yellow MP ‘Transcontinental’ (Mark 5) cab picture I posted above, here is an extract from a CM article I have on Motor Panels:
To demonstrate the Mk V’s design criteria, MP built its controversial Transcontinental concept cab, first shown at the 1972 Motor Show. Along with its radical exterior, MP had totally rethought the Ogle styled driving compartment.
This was the first time the Letchworth-based design company had tackled a truck interior.
Reaction was diverse to say the least. “You’ll never sell that,” said some visitors. Others, mainly big fleet operators, said if they could have that level of comfort in a cab “they’d pay for it right now”.
Merrick Taylor sees the Transcontinental as the catalyst that forced a number of UK manufacturers, including Seddon Atkinson and Foden, to take a fresh view of cab interiors. Although the Transcontinental was never taken up by a manufacturer, the basic Mk V was providing Foden with its military cabs in 1973 and the Fleetmaster and Haulmaster units in 1974. Other Mk V users were Scammell in 1978 for the Commander and Nubian vehicles, and FTF Floor for its tractive unit range.
Robert
Was the MP Mk5 cab’s first home the Foden Universal, which was mentioned in this last week, somewhere on these threads? The Fleetmaster and Haulmaster were launched in 1979, IIRC. Either way, Mr. Taylor is talking out of his advert- the catalyst for the improvements in GB lorry cabs was the customer’s demands, as usual, and the catalyst for that change was the European makers. That is where the innovation came from.
[zb]
anorak:
Was the MP Mk5 cab’s first home the Foden Universal, which was mentioned in this last week, somewhere on these threads? The Fleetmaster and Haulmaster were launched in 1979, IIRC. Either way, Mr. Taylor is talking out of his advert- the catalyst for the improvements in GB lorry cabs was the customer’s demands, as usual, and the catalyst for that change was the European makers. That is where the innovation came from.
I think 1979 saw the later S10 version of the same cab - a squarer-looking thing. Robert
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Carryfast:
robert1952:
[zb]
anorak:
Was the MP Mk5 cab’s first home the Foden Universal, which was mentioned in this last week, somewhere on these threads? The Fleetmaster and Haulmaster were launched in 1979, IIRC. Either way, Mr. Taylor is talking out of his advert- the catalyst for the improvements in GB lorry cabs was the customer’s demands, as usual, and the catalyst for that change was the European makers. That is where the innovation came from.I think 1979 saw the later S10 version of the same cab - a squarer-looking thing. Robert
Which leaves the question of which version was the SA 400 well before that ?.
It wasn’t ‘well before that’! The MP Mark 5 was shown in 1972 and various models followed; then the Seddon-Atkinson 400 was launched in April 1975.
As for ‘better’ or ‘worse’ with regard to MP vss SP: it probably depends on whether you prefer a metal or plastic cab. Personally, like John3300, I found the SP cab to be a nicer environment than the SA400 cab. However, both (either) were fit for the same purpose IMHO. Robert
According British & European Trucks of the 1970s:
In 1974, Foden introduced the ‘Universal’ range aimed at the European truck market, with models up to 100 tonnes GVW, and ■■■■■■■ engines up to 355bhp. It featured the steel S90 Motor Panels cab, as fitted to its military range…Fleetmaster and haulmaster models, developed from the Universal, were launched in 1977.
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Carryfast:
Which therefore leaves the fact that there was a more advanced version of the MP in use concurrently with the previous design used in the 7MW.
Correct! Robert
Carryfast:
As for SP v SA 400 I can only go by the comparison in our case of a 1980 reg Gardner powered day cab B series which really was a shed in terms of its cab,let alone engine/driveline,compared to the admittedly more roomy sleeper,older 1978 DAF 2800.Which probably ( partly ) explains how the later wagon ended up as yard shunter while everyone still wanted to drive the DAF v its later 2300/2500 successors let alone the ERF.While although I never had the privilege to try a 400 all the info in the day suggests that it was at least as good,if not better,than the DAF in terms of cab design.While the same info suggests similar in the case of the 7MW.
Well, the ■■■■■■■ 290 full-height cabbed B-series I drove was comfortable enough for its time and I’m sure it was bigger than the DAF 2800 cab I also drove. I was driving the SA400 for the same company, so was able to make a comparison. It’s all entirely subjective, as most truck choices are. You clearly had a different experience so the ‘truth’ is different for you. Robert
Now then! This picture might seem like an inconsequential detail from someone else’s past to you m’dears, but to me this picture from the Trans Arabia thread posted by Ronhawk spells ERF NGC (7MW) in the Middle East - ie ‘gold-dust’! In this case, it’s Jeddah. The one in the foreground is clearly an NGC and the one facing is a 5MW-cabbed MGC. Nice. Robert 
robert1952:
Carryfast:
Which therefore leaves the fact that there was a more advanced version of the MP in use concurrently with the previous design used in the 7MW.Correct! Robert
Carryfast:
As for SP v SA 400 I can only go by the comparison in our case of a 1980 reg Gardner powered day cab B series which really was a shed in terms of its cab,let alone engine/driveline,compared to the admittedly more roomy sleeper,older 1978 DAF 2800.Which probably ( partly ) explains how the later wagon ended up as yard shunter while everyone still wanted to drive the DAF v its later 2300/2500 successors let alone the ERF.While although I never had the privilege to try a 400 all the info in the day suggests that it was at least as good,if not better,than the DAF in terms of cab design.While the same info suggests similar in the case of the 7MW.Well, the ■■■■■■■ 290 full-height cabbed B-series I drove was comfortable enough for its time and I’m sure it was bigger than the DAF 2800 cab I also drove. I was driving the SA400 for the same company, so was able to make a comparison. It’s all entirely subjective, as most truck choices are. You clearly had a different experience so the ‘truth’ is different for you. Robert
Hiya you can tell who haven’t driven many british trucks. the day cab b series was no shed compared to the 8LV cab it was a leap forward. the sa cab all the plastic panels fell of when you was driving them or if you pressed hard on a panel it would crack now you the 2800 day cab that had NO ROOM at all ,the sleeper cab was ok but you needed the spacecab to be most comfortable… we have the gremlin preaching anything yank again (IH) that fabulous firm who put all the pension scheme money into a new harvester which failed n left all its workers with no pension…not so good this yankie stuff. why do you think their products are so marvelous…
3300John:
Hiya you can tell who haven’t driven many british trucks. the day cab b series was no shed compared to the 8LV cab it was a leap forward. the sa cab all the plastic panels fell of when you was driving them or if you pressed hard on a panel it would crack now you the 2800 day cab that had NO ROOM at all ,the sleeper cab was ok but you needed the spacecab to be most comfortable… we have the gremlin preaching anything yank again (IH) that fabulous firm who put all the pension scheme money into a new harvester which failed n left all its workers with no pension…not so good this yankie stuff. why do you think their products are so marvelous…
Robert
I’ve just been informed by Gary Corbishley that KCH 95N will be exhibited at Truckfest next weekend. I have booked myself in for the Sunday & Monday. However, this was not expected! I checked the current REVS magazine and the agenda shows that the REVS trailer will not be in attendance. Old Pond won’t be there either. So this clearly will not be a book promoting event! Nonetheless, if I spend some time with the Corbishley beast perhaps I can generate some interest. Robert
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