Harry Monk:
Exactly. Me, you and Neil are all old enough to remember what the score was in the days of HGV licences, whereas ROG, being either a young whippersnapper or a lifelong “trainer” with no real-world experience, doesn’t.
Not a lifelong trainer - only started that in 2005
Passed HGV class 1 in 1988 but was artic and rigid yard shunting in the mid to late 70s so I’ve been around HGV drivers for quite some time
It wouldn’t be the first time on here that someone’s views get subjected to ridicule just because they weren’t on regular middle east work at the time etc etc.etc.
I think the answer to the question of licencing and definitions at the time might become a bit clearer by asking the question could a six wheeler rigid be driven on a class 3 licence so long as it was empty and had it’s third axle lifted.As I remember the definitions and accepted interpretation at the time the words designed and constructed to be used as were what the law relied on to decide who could drive what.In the case of a tractor unit the fifth wheel was what differentiated the thing from a rigid and made it designed and constructed to be used as an articulated vehicle.
Exactly and the reason why you couldn’t drive a three axled wagon with the third axle lifted on a class 3 licence was because it was still designed and constructed to be used as three axled wagon not a two axled one and the reason why you couldn’t drive an artic tractor unit on a class 3 or 2 licence was because the fifth wheel made it designed and constructed to be used as an articulated vehicle wether it was coupled to a trailer or not.
The well known anomaly at the time was that a 38 t 2 + 3 drawbar outfit could be driven on a class 3 licence but a solo tractor unit needed a class 1 licence and it’s surprising how many people back then didn’t believe either and how many people still don’t believe that a tractor unit needed a class 1 at the time.
Back in the 60s it was a commonly held belief, and frequently done, that a solo tractor unit could be driven as a private car on the grounds that without a trailer it was no longer a goods vehicle. I well remember crowding three or four drivers into a cab (no bed then) to drive to the local Working Men’s Club, or the Miner’s Welfare.
Santa:
These are both from the 50s but I am sure they were driving up the M1 in the 70s
And into the 80’s I’m sure. I started driving trucks in '84 and I can remember seeing them then. Looking like the photo in your Flickr link with a couple of bits of plywood as weather protection and the driver wearing so many layers he looked like the Michelin Man.
Perhaps I may give your Lordships a little of the history of HGV/vocational driving licences. They were introduced in the Transport Act 1968 and there were three classes. A Class 3 vehicle was a rigid goods vehicle with no more than four wheels in contact with the ground. A Class 2 vehicle had more than four wheels in contact with the ground and was generally a six-wheeler or an eight-wheeler. A Class 1 vehicle was an articulated vehicle.
There is not much difference between driving a six-wheeler and a four-wheeler but an articulated vehicle is a completely different beast to drive. The trailer cuts in rapidly and it is extremely easy to allow the rear wheels of the trailer to mount the kerb or, even worse, to crush a cyclist or pedestrian. I have extensive experience of driving very large goods vehicles. Most have involved recovery vehicles or towing draw-bar trailers. Despite my experience, whenever I drive an articulated vehicle I do so with some trepidation.
With the original Classes 3, 2 and 1 vehicles no special licence was needed to tow a draw-bar trailer. The draw-bar trailer is attached to the rear of the goods vehicle but no weight of the draw-bar trailer is imposed on the tractor unit. However, with an articulated vehicle about 20 per cent. of the weight of the trailer is applied to the tractor.
A draw-bar trailer is much easier to tow down the road and therefore there was considered to be no need to have an additional licence in order to tow such a trailer. A Class 1 HGV licence was not needed to tow a draw-bar trailer.
We then introduced the new EC driving licence classes and there were three. Class C relates to a rigid goods vehicle, no matter how many wheels it has. Class C+E generally relates to an articulated vehicle. Class C+E restricted–and this is the important part–allows people who had an entitlement under their old Class 2 or Class 3 licence to tow a draw-bar trailer to continue to do so. However, they are not allowed to tow an articulated trailer because that is much more difficult to drive.
I thought it rather unwise at the time but it did not appear to cause a problem. But now we have further harmonisation of EU driving licence classes and it appears that we are to ditch the C + E restricted class. To do that, as I understand it, the Government intend that people who have a C + E restricted licence will now be able to drive an articulated vehicle, even though they may never have towed any form of trailer behind a rigid goods vehicle, they have certainly never driven an articulated vehicle and they have certainly never undergone a DoT test to show that they can handle a trailer. I assure your Lordships that the DoT test for driving an articulated vehicle is a very stiff one indeed.
Does anybody remember the old Class 4 license for mini artics that usually had a Transit or Land Rover as a tractor?
Or have I overdone it on the Marstons again?
Fat Controller:
Does anybody remember the old Class 4 license for mini artics that usually had a Transit or Land Rover as a tractor?
Or have I overdone it on the Marstons again?
You haven’t overdone the Marstons, it was a sort of mini artic but offhand I can’t remember the exact criteria for a class 4 vehicle, but no-doubt someone will remember
edit:
I’ve just checked an old license I’ve still got and class 4 was “Articulated vehicle not fitted with automatic transmission , the tractor unit of which does not exceed two tons unladen weight”.
Class 4A was the same as class 4 but with automatic transmission.
welshboyinspain:
I didn’t know Ralph Davies was a member of this forum aka Fat Controller
Sorry to disappoint you but I’m not Ralph. However many years ago my firm used to hire him some units. We had to change the name on the front of the Magnums to Mack cos Ralph thought Renault sounded a bit effeminate, ( I won’t use his actual word for it).
Carryfast:
Exactly and the reason why you couldn’t drive a three axled wagon with the third axle lifted on a class 3 licence was because it was still designed and constructed to be used as three axled wagon not a two axled one and the reason why you couldn’t drive an artic tractor unit on a class 3 or 2 licence was because the fifth wheel made it designed and constructed to be used as an articulated vehicle wether it was coupled to a trailer or not.
The well known anomaly at the time was that a 38 t 2 + 3 drawbar outfit could be driven on a class 3 licence but a solo tractor unit needed a class 1 licence and it’s surprising how many people back then didn’t believe either and how many people still don’t believe that a tractor unit needed a class 1 at the time.
Carryfast:
Exactly and the reason why you couldn’t drive a three axled wagon with the third axle lifted on a class 3 licence was because it was still designed and constructed to be used as three axled wagon not a two axled one and the reason why you couldn’t drive an artic tractor unit on a class 3 or 2 licence was because the fifth wheel made it designed and constructed to be used as an articulated vehicle wether it was coupled to a trailer or not.
The well known anomaly at the time was that a 38 t 2 + 3 drawbar outfit could be driven on a class 3 licence but a solo tractor unit needed a class 1 licence and it’s surprising how many people back then didn’t believe either and how many people still don’t believe that a tractor unit needed a class 1 at the time.
complete rubbish.
Not rubbish
I contacted a couple of our IAM examiners who were an inspector and a sergeant in the 70s/80s/90s and they stated the same about the class 1 artic unit (no trailer) in relation to the C&U regs and the licence required - it WAS HGV class 1 according to them and they enforced that!!
Which part?
Fairly sure you could not drive a 6 wheeler with the rear axle lifted,on a class 3 licence.
I think the wording was
“a goods vehicle designed to have no more than 4 wheels in contact with the road”= class 3
“a goods vehicle designed to have more than 4 wheelsetc”= class 2
As far as the 5 th wheel argument goes, there was always a an argument around this. I don’t think that I ever got definitive proof one way or the other but seem to remember that the overwhelming consensus was that a tractor unit WITH the 5th wheel in place WAS an articulated vehicle for the purposes of the licence.
The reason being the wording on the licence
“a goods vehicle, weighing more than 2 tons, to which a trailer can be attached by partial superimposition”
Maybe Tachograph can confirm that I have or not got the wording correct.
If so, then a unit with the 5th wheel is obviousley a vehicle to which a trailer CAN be attached. If the wording is “to which a trailer IS attached”, then obviousley it is not an articulated vehicle as it is.
The only other part I would question is the 38 tons wag and drag, wasn’t the limit still 32 tons?
del949:
Fairly sure you could not drive a 6 wheeler with the rear axle lifted,on a class 3 licence.
I think the wording was
“a goods vehicle designed to have no more than 4 wheels in contact with the road”= class 3
“a goods vehicle designed to have more than 4 wheelsetc”= class 2
Maybe Tachograph can confirm that I have or not got the wording correct.
I’ll do better than that here’s a scan of the license with the exact wording, this license was issued in 1984, sorry I don’t have an older one but presumably the wording would have been the same.
Class 3: “Heavy goods vehicle, not fitted with automatic transmission, other than an articulated vehicle, designed and constructed to have not more than 4 wheels in contact with the road surface”
I would say that you couldn’t drive a 6 wheeler with the axle raised on a class 3 license because of the “designed and constructed” wording.
The wording on the license for an artic seems to back-up what Harry and other have said, that you could drive an artic unit without a trailer on a class 2 or 3 license, it doesn’t say anything about “designed and constructed” for use as an articulated vehicle on the license.
The wording on the original BLACK covered licence definately had words to the effect of “attached by partial suprimposition” included in the definition of an articulated vehicle.
ROG:
I contacted a couple of our IAM examiners who were an inspector and a sergeant in the 70s/80s/90s and they stated the same about the class 1 artic unit (no trailer) in relation to the C&U regs and the licence required - it WAS HGV class 1 according to them and they enforced that!!
In that case, they didn’t understand the law.
In the days of HGV licensing, it was completely legal to drive a tractor unit on a Class 3 or 2 license, depending on how many axles it had. Everybody- hauliers, fitters, drivers, the Police- understood that.
There were minor changes to licensing when LGV licensing came in, but one thing that didn’t change was the type of license you needed to drive a tractor unit.
You have been put on pre-mod before for giving erroneous advice, and refusing to listen to wiser souls. Don’t let it happen again.
