ROG:
tachograph:
ROG:
Mike-C:
Anyway, where’s the domestic rules for goods vehicles?online.businesslink.gov.uk/Tran … s_0511.pdf
Domestic starts on page 26 of 56We need the regulations not the guide
Then may I suggest PMing geebee45 as he is likely to know where the most up to date regulations are to be found
May I suggest we don’t bug people by PM. The thread is public and visible so if someone wants to reply they will. They don’t need ‘helpful’ suggestions as to what they should post on.
Coffeeholic:
May I suggest we don’t bug people by PM. The thread is public and visible so if someone wants to reply they will. They don’t need ‘helpful’ suggestions as to what they should post on.
What is wrong in asking a member who may have particular specialist knowledge if they would care to part with that knowledge on the forum and adding a link to a particular post■■?
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
May I suggest we don’t bug people by PM. The thread is public and visible so if someone wants to reply they will. They don’t need ‘helpful’ suggestions as to what they should post on.What is wrong in asking a member who may have particular specialist knowledge if they would care to part with that knowledge on the forum and adding a link to a particular post■■?
You really don’t learn do you?
ROG:
Coffeeholic:
May I suggest we don’t bug people by PM. The thread is public and visible so if someone wants to reply they will. They don’t need ‘helpful’ suggestions as to what they should post on.What is wrong in asking a member who may have particular specialist knowledge if they would care to part with that knowledge on the forum and adding a link to a particular post■■?
that’s not how forums work !! discussions should be public not prompted and arranged behind the scenes 
Wheel Nut:
That isn’t domestic law as I know it
How do you know it, by that i mean what do you remember of the rules, you don’t have to give me links just an overview of the rules as you remember them?
Everything i’m looking at points to an 11 hour ‘spreadover’ or ‘duty’ extendable to 12 and half hours. Bear in mind here that ‘duty’ or ‘spreadover’ was clocking on to clocking off, there was no POA malarkey. Everybit of discussion, mention of the legislation all points that this was the case, even up untill the start of the 2009 domestic rules consulatation. Even the parlimentary brief for this acknowledges what i said. It appears that when it left VOSA’s lips it ended up that there was no rest rules, when there is.
This notion that you can work an hour, be off an hour, work another hour and so forth is complete nonsense. I’d love to hear from some guys who actually used the system and can remember it.
Mike, the bit I remember from the 70’s is irrelevant. The bit I typed are from 2011
People still talk of spreadover, that has not mattered since my days of driving in 1974
Which bit of this is so difficult to understand?
Duty: In the case of an employee driver, this means being on duty (whether driving or otherwise) for anyone who employs him as a driver. This includes all periods of work and driving, but does not include rest or breaks.
EU Rules 06:00. 3 hours work - 2 hours break - 4 hours work - 1 hour break - 1 hour work - 1 hour break - 1 hour work - 19:00. 13 hours duty and 11 hour continuous daily rest required so no more duty available until 06:00.
Domestic rules 06:00. 3 hours work - 2 hours break - 4 hours work - 1 hour break - 1 hour work - 17:00. 11 hours since the start of the day but only 8 hours duty leaving 3 more hours available before the end of the 24 hour period at 06:00. If those 3 hours are completed before 06:00 no more duty can be performed until after 06:00.
Denis F:
that’s not how forums work !! discussions should be public not prompted and arranged behind the scenes
Dennis, I believe you have a lot of knowledge on livestock haulage so if there was a post you missed on this subject where your input would be greatly valued are you saying it would be wrong for a member to PM you a link to it??
ROG:
Dennis, I believe you have a lot of knowledge on livestock haulage so if there was a post you missed on this subject where your input would be greatly valued are you saying it would be wrong for a member to PM you a link to it??
How do you know he missed it? He might have seen it but not known the answer and so, rather than making something up or posting some pointless nonsense, decided to keep quiet. Or perhaps he had seen it but not yet had time to reply?
Paul
repton:
ROG:
Dennis, I believe you have a lot of knowledge on livestock haulage so if there was a post you missed on this subject where your input would be greatly valued are you saying it would be wrong for a member to PM you a link to it??How do you know he missed it? He might have seen it but not known the answer and so, rather than making something up or posting some pointless nonsense, decided to keep quiet. Or perhaps he had seen it but not yet had time to reply?
Paul
What if a member knew he had that knowledge and would appreciate that info - how should he approach the member?
ROG:
Relying on the original road traffic act is unlikely to be up to date as so much of that has been ammended over the years
As far as I can see the part that deals with drivers hours (domestic rules) hasn’t been changed at-all.
Surely the whole point of this discussion is that the transport act of 1968 states that
After 5 1/2 hours duty a driver should have a break of at least 1/2 hour
There is to be a rest period of 11 hours between working days
There is a limit to the spread-over or start to end of shift if you prefer of 12 1/2 hours
There is a limit to the spread-over or start to end of shift if you prefer of 14 hours if you have a break of 4 hours during the shift
Like Mike I’ve been unable to find anything that even suggests that the domestic rules have changed since the transport act 1968 
Coffeeholic:
Which bit of this is so difficult to understand?Duty: In the case of an employee driver, this means being on duty (whether driving or otherwise) for anyone who employs him as a driver. This includes all periods of work and driving, but does not include rest or breaks.
Its reference to domestic drivers hours and the 1968 Act?
Coffeeholic:
Domestic rules 06:00. 3 hours work - 2 hours break - 4 hours work - 1 hour break - 1 hour work - 17:00. 11 hours since the start of the day but only 8 hours duty leaving 3 more hours available before the end of the 24 hour period at 06:00. If those 3 hours are completed before 06:00 no more duty can be performed until after 06:00.
I’m not seeing this is the case,duty time is spreadover, or starting work to finishing it. Thats always been the case, the interpretation and the understanding of it. Until VOSA or DfT have very recently decided to read it a different way by incorporating new found things into it that arn’t there.
Mike-C:
Wheel Nut:
That isn’t domestic law as I know itHow do you know it, by that i mean what do you remember of the rules, you don’t have to give me links just an overview of the rules as you remember them?
Thinking about it overnight, were we limited to 10hours working time over a 12.5 spread, was it 8 hours driving, but as I said it is as irrelevant now as to when we could split our daily breaks in 15 minute, 20 or 25 minute segments before April 2007
Hansard
I turn to the Drivers’ Hours (Good Vehicles) (Modifications) Order 1986. This draft instrument is made under the powers in section 96(12) of the Transport Act 1968 to modify the domestic drivers’ hours code for goods vehicles which are outside the scope of the EC regulations. Under regulation 2 all of the domestic drivers’ hours code is disapplied except for the daily driving limit in section 96(1) and the daily duty limit in section 96(3)(a). The time structure provided by a limit on spreadover in 96(3)(b) is removed. In consequence of the disapplication of section 96(4) of the 1968 Act, which provided for a statutory period of rest between two successive days, the definition of “working day” is amended. Regulation 3 replaces the existing provisions which provide for further exemptions for light goods vehicles with new provisions which have been altered to take account of the fact that all the domestic drivers’ hours code, except for the two provisions on daily driving and daily duty mentioned, are disapplied under regulation 2.
Before these regulations were laid before the House, the 1968 regulations provided for up to 10 hours driving at the wheel, up to 11 hours on duty, including driving, up to 12½ hours spread over–that is, booking on and booking off – and at least a half hour break for rest and refreshment after 5½ hours on duty. There were at least 11 hours of consecutive duty.
Maximum driving time
3.6 In any working day the maximum amount of driving permitted for goods and passenger vehicles throughout the UK is 10 hours. This also includes any time spent driving under the EU or AETR rules.
Maximum duty time
3.7 Duty time includes all periods of work and driving, but does not include rest or breaks.
3.8 For drivers of goods vehicles in GB, in any working day the maximum amount of duty permitted is 11
hours. A goods vehicle driver is exempt from this daily duty limit on any working day when he does not drive.
A goods driver who drives for less than 4 hours on every day of the working week is exempt from the duty
limits for that working week. Other than a longer maximum duty limit of 14 hours, the NI Domestic Rules are the same as in GB.
Breaks
3.10 For drivers of goods vehicles, there are no break requirements in GB. In NI, after 5 hours of continuous driving a break of at least 30 minutes must be taken.
Daily rest
3.12 For drivers of goods vehicles, there are no daily rest requirements in GB. In NI, in any period of 24 hours, the period for rest is 10 consecutive hours.
Weekly/fortnightly rest
3.14 For drivers of goods vehicles, there are no weekly or fortnightly rest requirements.
Record keeping requirements
3.16 Unlike the EU Rules, the Domestic Rules do not require the use of a tachograph to record the driver’s
activity.
3.17 There is a manual record keeping requirement for in-scope goods vehicles that require an Operator Licence
(i.e. most vehicles over 3.5 tonnes). Drivers are required to record their hours of work manually on a weekly
record sheet (in a log book kept in their vehicle) which operators are expected to check and sign each week.
Alternatively, an EU-approved and sealed tachograph may be used. When recording in this manner, and where domestic records are legally required, all the EU Rules on the fitment and use of the tachograph must be complied with.
Enforcement
3.19 The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) has responsibility for enforcing the Domestic Rules in GB and the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) has responsibility for enforcing the NI Domestic Rules. The
Police also have the power to prosecute where the Domestic Rules have been breached.
Obligations and penalties
3.21 Operators of transport undertakings have legal responsibilities and liabilities for their own compliance with the Domestic Rules and that of the drivers under their control. Individual drivers are also responsible for ensuring they adhere to the Domestic Rules.
3.22 If any of the requirements are contravened the driver and any other person (an employer or person to whose orders that driver was subject) who caused or permitted the contravention is liable to a fine. Breaches of the Domestic Rules can also be referred to the Traffic Commissioner in GB and to the Department of the
Environment in NI who could consider whether or not the driver/operator should be considered fit to hold an
appropriate licence to drive/operate.
3.23 The law protects from conviction those drivers who can prove that, because of unforeseen difficulties, they were unavoidably delayed in finishing a journey and breached the Domestic Rules as a result. It also protects employers if any driver was involved in other driving jobs that the employer could not have known about.
The above was the regulation in force at 2009
There you go, we are on a roll now. I knew someone would eventually find it and my money has been on you all along Malc. 
I’ve had a folder on my PC with PDF’s of the regs and amendments in it for a couple of weeks now, since I started learning the domestic regs due to considering another job change, and wondering if I had fakes when folk said they couldn’t find them. 
repton:
ROG:
Dennis, I believe you have a lot of knowledge on livestock haulage so if there was a post you missed on this subject where your input would be greatly valued are you saying it would be wrong for a member to PM you a link to it??How do you know he missed it? He might have seen it but not known the answer and so, rather than making something up or posting some pointless nonsense, decided to keep quiet. Or perhaps he had seen it but not yet had time to reply?
Paul
Exactly. All the threads he used to PM me about I had seen and for whatever reason chosen not to contribute to, a fact borne out by me continuing to not contribute even after his PM’s.
Coffeeholic:
There you go, we are on a roll now. I knew someone would eventually find it and my money has been on you all along Malc.I’ve had a folder on my PC with PDF’s of the regs and amendments in it for a couple of weeks now, since I started learning the domestic regs due to considering another job change, and wondering if I had fakes when folk said they couldn’t find them.
When i was asking where you got the idea from that there was no rest, you knew full well all along that there was a modification order and rather than say it, you never ? Clever that.
Mike-C:
Coffeeholic:
There you go, we are on a roll now. I knew someone would eventually find it and my money has been on you all along Malc.I’ve had a folder on my PC with PDF’s of the regs and amendments in it for a couple of weeks now, since I started learning the domestic regs due to considering another job change, and wondering if I had fakes when folk said they couldn’t find them.
When i was asking where you got the idea from that there was no rest, you knew full well all along that there was a modification order and rather than say it, you never ? Clever that.
I never had the idea there was no rest, there is. I repeatedly said there was no requirement for a continuous daily rest period and also on several occasions pointed out that people were reading the wrong regulations.
And while it was only a guide book ROG posted a link to it is a guide to the latest regulations and it has proved to be an accurate guide throughout it’s various revisions.
ROG:
repton:
ROG:
Dennis, I believe you have a lot of knowledge on livestock haulage so if there was a post you missed on this subject where your input would be greatly valued are you saying it would be wrong for a member to PM you a link to it??How do you know he missed it? He might have seen it but not known the answer and so, rather than making something up or posting some pointless nonsense, decided to keep quiet. Or perhaps he had seen it but not yet had time to reply?
Paul
What if a member knew he had that knowledge and would appreciate that info - how should he approach the member?
if a member has a question he can approach another member directly ( by pm) or via the forums
however i believe it is wrong for a third party to pm members to “help” the discussion along.
I also agree with Paul in the quote above
I am just intrigued as to which direction Neil is heading next, somehow I don’t see him driving a milk float, and being a Scotsman doubt he will be doing anything for charity.
Could bus driving be an attraction, no handball and no winding trailer legs down
