Domestic Driving regs for HGV's

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

tachograph:
This thread is about working under mixed EU and domestic regulations in the same shift, obviously I meant that when you’re working to both EU regulations and domestic regulations in the same shift the domestic daily driving limits and domestic daily duty limits have to be obeyed.

As you’ve stated differently, feel free to show us where it says in any regulations that you can ignore the domestic daily driving limits or domestic daily duty limits when doing a mixed shift.

Show me where it says that domestic regs must be ahered to in a mixed shift when it states that eu regs usurp domestic regs if a shift has mixed regs

22

ROG:

tachograph:
This thread is about working under mixed EU and domestic regulations in the same shift, obviously I meant that when you’re working to both EU regulations and domestic regulations in the same shift the domestic daily driving limits and domestic daily duty limits have to be obeyed.

As you’ve stated differently, feel free to show us where it says in any regulations that you can ignore the domestic daily driving limits or domestic daily duty limits when doing a mixed shift.

Show me where it says that domestic regs must be ahered to in a mixed shift when it states that eu regs usurp domestic regs if a shift has mixed regs

There’s no reason whatsoever why any regulations would state that when working to mixed EU and domestic regulations the domestic regulations and the EU regulations must be adhered to so they don’t.
From memory neither do they say that in a mixed shift the EU regulations nullify the domestic regulations but feel free to post a link to that information.

Clue: Stop reading something that’s not there (or at-least you don’t seem to be able to quote or link to) but do read page 29 of the booklet that you’re so fond of quoting as the regulations.

Edited: to correct a badly phrased sentence immediately under the quotes.

23

tachograph:

ROG:
When both regs are used in the same shift the whole shift then becomes an EU regs shift
Domestic driving in the above shift counts as other work for that shift
simple really

Sorry but that’s wrong on just about every level, including the bit about it being simple apparently :stuck_out_tongue:

EU driving counts as driving for the domestic regulations and the domestic driving limits and duty limits still have to be obeyed where a mixed shift is concerned.

shep532:
Now I thought it ‘could’ become an EU shift … I thought you had the option to comply with whatever rules for the vehicle at the time - OR - stay under EU regs.

So that would mean 5 hours of out of scope on the way there would be 5 hours of work - he could then drive 9 hours under EU regs on the way back. Crazy

I see no reason why you could not stay on EU regulations for the entire shift if you wished to, in fact given that domestic rules restrict you to 11 hours duty time I would have thought that staying on EU regulations would usually be seen as advantageous to mixing the regulations.

No he couldn’t because he still has to obey the rules on domestic driving limits, so 5 hours driving under domestic rules leaves 5 hours driving under EU regulations, see my reply to ROG above :wink:

limeyphil:

  1. there is no break specified in domestic regs. you can drive for 10 hours, but the working day can’t exceed 11 hours.
  2. you are not governed by the WTD, it’s the road transport directive (RTD).
  3. you will not be under EU rules on your way to get the trailer, as you are picking up animal carcases.
  4. if the trailer is from another EU country, then it will be under CMR regs, therefore you are continuing an EU journey, so you will be under EU regs and not domestic regs.
  1. When working to domestic regulations a driver comes under the general working time regulations not the RT(WT)R 2005.
  2. Sorry but I’m confused as to where CMR enters into the equation, my understanding is that CMR controls transport contracts and therefore has nothing to do with drivers regulations.
    I’ll wait to be corrected on that one though because I know nothing of CMR and am not interested enough to learn about it :wink:

I respect your knowledge on here, and it’s quite nice to put you right. (very rare) :smiley:
but if a trailer comes from abroad, then you are subject to EU regs.
for example:
a haulier with a national o’licence can not collect an EU loaded trailer from the docks.(legally) :wink:
i could go on, But i know it’s the sort of thing you can add up for yourself.

24

tachograph:
read page 29 of the booklet that you’re so fond of quoting as the regulations.

Which other booklet gives the UK domestic regs for LGV drivers? - there is only one

I am now starting to think differently…

Mixed EU/AETR and GB domestic driving
Many drivers spend some of their time driving under one set of rules and some under another set, perhaps even on the same day. If you work partly under EU/AETR rules and partly under GB domestic rules during a day or a week, the following points must be considered (the EU rules take precedence over the GB domestic rules):

The time you spend driving under EU rules cannot count as an off-duty period under GB domestic rules.

Driving and other duty under GB domestic rules (including non-driving work in another
employment) count as attendance at work but not as a break or rest period under EU rules.

Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.

Any driving under EU rules in a week means that you must take a daily rest period on those days
when you actually drive under EU rules, as well as a weekly rest period.

On a more careful reading it does say EU rules take precedence but then goes on to say the bit I underlined

So does that mean the driver MUST conform to BOTH sets of regs in the same shift or not ■■?

25

Senario

A driver does the first 8 hours under domestic regs which consists of 7 hours driving and 1 hour working, takes a 30 min break, then does 6 hours under eu regs which consists of 4 hours driving and 2 hours other work

Are they legal?

If not then why ?

26

ROG:

Mixed EU/AETR and GB domestic driving
Many drivers spend some of their time driving under one set of rules and some under another set, perhaps even on the same day. If you work partly under EU/AETR rules and partly under GB domestic rules during a day or a week, the following points must be considered (the EU rules take precedence over the GB domestic rules):

The time you spend driving under EU rules cannot count as an off-duty period under GB domestic rules.

Driving and other duty under GB domestic rules (including non-driving work in another
employment) count as attendance at work but not as a break or rest period under EU rules.

Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.

Any driving under EU rules in a week means that you must take a daily rest period on those days
when you actually drive under EU rules, as well as a weekly rest period.

On a more careful reading it does say EU rules take precedence but then goes on to say the bit I underlined

So does that mean the driver MUST conform to BOTH sets of regs in the same shift or not ■■?

That quote together with the quotes bellow I believe show that VOSA are saying that on mixed regulation days a driver should obey both sets of regulations.

The “Transport Act 1968 part VI” certainly seems to show that the domestic regulations have to be complied with on days that a driver works to the domestic regulations at any time during the day.

I’m pretty sure that the (EC) No 561/2006 shows that the EU regulations must also be complied with but I don’t have time to go through it right now.

In reality for daily duty/working time and daily driving time I think it will mean complying with whichever is the most restrictive.

So the answer to “So does that mean the driver MUST conform to BOTH sets of regs in the same shift or not ■■?” must be “yes”, at-least until someone proves me wrong.

Driving limits
GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time
when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.

Other duty limits
GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

27

tachograph:
That quote together with the quotes bellow I believe show that VOSA are saying that on mixed regulation days a driver should obey both sets of regulations.

I am now tending to agree with you

Thinking again about what the actual wording says … it says preference given to eu regs and not that the eu regs usurp the domestic regs completely for the whole shift

I think if faced with doing both in a shift I would not opt to go on domestic but stick to the eu regs for the lot - I assume the driver can choose to do that?

28

ROG:

tachograph:
That quote together with the quotes bellow I believe show that VOSA are saying that on mixed regulation days a driver should obey both sets of regulations.

I am now tending to agree with you

Thinking again about what the actual wording says … it says preference given to eu regs and not that the eu regs usurp the domestic regs completely for the whole shift

I think if faced with doing both in a shift I would not opt to go on domestic but stick to the eu regs for the lot - I assume the driver can choose to do that?

Personally I have found this part of the rules to be the hardest to satisfy myself I know what they mean. I hate to admit it but I just don’t have a difinitive answer.

Each time i try to sort this - I find I can’t. At first i decided that the rules that applied at the time depended which vehicle i was driving. So - if I was in a 3.5t van - at that time domestic applies. I driver 4 hours non stop in my van. I now get in a vehicle in scope of EU Rules. I now comply with EU rules. The driving I just did is recorded on my tacho as work - I haven’t done any driving. The 3.5t van did not require me to make any records. I am now sitting in my HGV with a manual entry into my digi tach to show 4 hours of work. I am now under EU rules and have my full 9 or 10 drive available and have only been on duty 4 hours so have a potential 11 hours more on duty - so I ‘could’ potentially drive 9 hours. Because I am now under EU rules the WTD applies of course. This means I have treated the whole shift as EU Rules - which I believe I am allowed to do.

Are we saying that because I started the shift under Domestic - I now have to stick to the 10 hour and 11 hour domestic ruling? Even though the rest of my shift is under EU? There is a small paragraph in the GV262 that seems to suggest this.
“GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.” as it contradicts itself. Then I read it again and decide it doesn’t because it just means whilst under EU I have to abide by driving limits for breaks as well as the 10 hour driving limit.

But … then i get to thinking that under EU Regs driving is defined as driving activity recorded on the tacho - the 4 hours in my little van didn’t record as driving on a tacho so I haven’t driven!

This is something I need to resolve. You all know i deliver DCPC training and this does crop up. I was asked only yesterday. The answer given at the moment is “I am unclear on this. Please give me your email or telephone number and I will clarify as soon as I have a difinitive answer. Meanwhile observe the domestic limit of 10 hour driving”. I hate that I have to say that but I can’t do any more. If I give more advice than that I may be wrong because I can’t decipher the rules as I should be able to.

There are obvious themes of this that crop up. Driver has driven under EU for 10 hours. He has been on duty 12 hours. He is 90 minutes from base. Boss sends a driver in a 3.5t van. He brings the HGV back and driver 1 drives the van back. I see this as ‘work’ whilst driving the van and he records it as such on his tacho. At this point this makes sense to me. BUT we could say that now he is in the van he is under domestic rules and has already driven 10 hours … so can’t go any further. BUT he is allowed to operate under EU for the full shift - therefore driving the van is not driving.

I rang the FTA helpline. For the scenario above they agreed the driver could drive the van and record it as work. I was happy with the answer, then read the books again and decided I wasn’t happy with the answer. I rang them again - now I was told no he couldn’t drive the van as he must obey the 10 hour driving limit for domestic. So two different interpretations.

I am quite confident that should I approach VOSA I could well receive two different answers again because the rules appear to be unclear.

This is all caused by these sentences from the GV262;

“Driving and other duty under GB domestic rules (including non-driving work in another employment) count as attendance at work but not as a break or rest period under EU rules.”
“Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.”

I have read everything I can find and cannot see the answer. I must be missing something and look forward to someone pointing me in the right direction to resolve this.

29

No wonder I was confused a bit (lot) …

I spoke to geebee45 this morning and this is the way it works …

When using both sets of regs in one shift the driving time rules for both domestic and EU must be adhered to.

The duty time for domestic is ignored when both sets of regs are used

Doing a EU max driving day of 10 hours but having other work time left means that any vehicle being used to get the driver back to base where the driver is actually driving it needs to be a non goods vehicle because if it was a van etc then it would come under domestic regs and the 10 hours for that have already been used up.
If the driver had used a 9 hour EU regs driving day then 1 hour would be left for driving a domestic regs goods vehicle.

30

ROG:
No wonder I was confused a bit (lot) …

I spoke to geebee45 this morning and this is the way it works …

When using both sets of regs in one shift the driving time rules for both domestic and EU must be adhered to.

The duty time for domestic is ignored when both sets of regs are used

Doing a EU max driving day of 10 hours but having other work time left means that any vehicle being used to get the driver back to base where the driver is actually driving it needs to be a non goods vehicle because if it was a van etc then it would come under domestic regs and the 10 hours for that have already been used up.
If the driver had used a 9 hour EU regs driving day then 1 hour would be left for driving a domestic regs goods vehicle.

This answer makes sense from a safety point of view but it isn’t how the regs seem to read - but … and there’s always a but … why do they have the bit that says driving a domestic vehicle does not count as driving towards EU? it appears pointless if we have to observe the domestic rules as well as EU on a mixed driving day. I suppose it means a day spent driving domestic (but no EU that day) would not count towards weekly or two weekly driving limits for EU?

and i also don’t get why the domestic driving limit is to be adhered to but the duty limit not. In the GV262 it says;

Driving limits
GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time
when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.
Other duty limits
GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

Which would suggest both driving and duty must be adhered to.

There are other anomolies. Driving the 3.5t van I don’t have to keep any records at all for domestic. For Eu that time was work! So after 4 hours in the van I get in the EU vehicle and record 4 hours of work - why would that be wrong? The books say that time was work. it doesn’t add up :unamused:

I still believe this is why this particular area has caused so much difficulty interpreting it and i can’t get my head around it - because each answer you come to can then be contradicted - which isn’t usually the case. most of the rules read one way and one way only. Everything i have seen in writing for this area contradicts itself somewhere.

Anyway - thanks for seeking out an answer and thanks to geebee45 for the answer. it is the answer I will stick with :smiley: But I know what will happen in a DCPC session - I’ll spout this answer and someone will quote something back that makes it a little less watertight and awkward to defend. I really would like to see clarification in writing if someone can point me to it. or point me to the bit i already read but didn’t understand. :smiley:

31

shep532:
There are other anomolies. Driving the 3.5t van I don’t have to keep any records at all for domestic. For Eu that time was work! So after 4 hours in the van I get in the EU vehicle and record 4 hours of work - why would that be wrong? The books say that time was work. it doesn’t add up

Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.

Does that answer it?

32

ROG:

shep532:
There are other anomolies. Driving the 3.5t van I don’t have to keep any records at all for domestic. For Eu that time was work! So after 4 hours in the van I get in the EU vehicle and record 4 hours of work - why would that be wrong? The books say that time was work. it doesn’t add up

Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.

Does that answer it?

No :smiley: I know driving under EU counts to the domestic driving limit but driving under domestic doesn’t count to EU driving. Isn’t that a contradiction? So after 4 hours driving my van I get in the EU vehicle and the EU rules tell me I have to record what I just did as work. So as far as my tacho is concerned I haven’t driven yet.

I think what I am missing is the bit in writing that clarifies on a mixed activity day I have to abide by both rules (or at least the driving limit of domestic as well as EU). I cannot find this clarification but think I have confused myself that much now I am reading past it.

Actually I can see it - page 29 of the GV262 says the GB domestic driving limit must always be obeyed, but it also says the GB domestic duty limit must always be obeyed - yet Geebee45 said it didn’t. I suppose this confirms it regarding the driving. On a mixed activity day, because it is a mixed activity day, no matter what combination of vehicles I drive the domestic 10 hour limit for driving must be obeyed. End of. :smiley:

BUT … in the van i don’t have to make any records. So after 4 hours driving when I get in my EU truck i correclty record 4 hours of work. later that day i am stopped by VOSA and they see 4 hours of work. No records for the van at all and correctly recorded work on my chart. What happens then? Have I done something wrong at this point? I reckon not. :wink:

I accept the answer from geebee45 but would now like to know why the duty limit is ignored. meanwhile when the subject crops up - the domestic driving limit must be obeyed.

33

If after driving under EU regs for a bit VOSA asked what you were doing for those 4 hours of other work (van driving) what would you tell them?

If you said van driving under domestic regs then they would count that towards the domestic 10 hour limit

Of course you could always tell them something else …

34

ROG:
No wonder I was confused a bit (lot) …

I spoke to geebee45 this morning and this is the way it works …

When using both sets of regs in one shift the driving time rules for both domestic and EU must be adhered to.

The duty time for domestic is ignored when both sets of regs are used

Doing a EU max driving day of 10 hours but having other work time left means that any vehicle being used to get the driver back to base where the driver is actually driving it needs to be a non goods vehicle because if it was a van etc then it would come under domestic regs and the 10 hours for that have already been used up.
If the driver had used a 9 hour EU regs driving day then 1 hour would be left for driving a domestic regs goods vehicle.

This requires an explanation, I have the greatest respect for geebee45 but regardless of who told you this it seems a bit pointless saying that someone told you this is the legal situation without explaining the reasoning behind it, especially as VOSA’s booklet GV262 seems to contradict what has been said here.

I’ve been unable to find anything in the regulations that backs up what has been said here or anything that would lead me to the same conclusion, so please point me in the direction of any part of the regulations that back up the statement that domestic duty time can be ignored when working to mixed regulations.

Apart from what is or is not in the regulations please explain this quote from VOSA’s own booklet GV262:

GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

Personally I’d like what you’ve said to be correct because I don’t like over regulation and anything that makes the drivers life a little less regulated is good as far as I’m concerned, but you saying it and me wanting it doesn’t make it so, so please clarify the legal reasoning behind this.

35

Hopefully geebee45 will have a few spare mins to post on this …

36

ROG:
If after driving under EU regs for a bit VOSA asked what you were doing for those 4 hours of other work (van driving) what would you tell them?

If you said van driving under domestic regs then they would count that towards the domestic 10 hour limit

Of course you could always tell them something else …

Now then. If asked what the 4 hours work was I would say “Driving the little van”. At this point recording it as work on my tacho of the vehicle in scope of EU regs is not wrong is it? The EU regs clearly state time driving a domestic vehicle counts as work for EU regs. that’s how i understand it. I haven’t seen anything anywhere telling me I must record that 4 hours of van driving as anything other than work. So at the point have I done anything wrong? If that point was 3 hours driving of the EU vehicle - even with the mixed activities ruling I wouldn’t at that point have done anything wrong. I’d be within all driving limits and would have made correct records of my activities.

I fully understand now that when operating under mixed activities I still abide by the Domestic limits (although geebee45 says only driving) but it plainly doesn’t make sense or all these questions wouldn’t be being asked.

Everything else within the various regs makes sense. Everything else is explanable. Mixed EU and domestic activities don’t make sense from what is written - or at least from what I have read which may not be everything.

As tachograph has said - this needs clarifying with more than a post on a forum.

37

shep532:

ROG:
If after driving under EU regs for a bit VOSA asked what you were doing for those 4 hours of other work (van driving) what would you tell them?

If you said van driving under domestic regs then they would count that towards the domestic 10 hour limit

Of course you could always tell them something else …

Now then. If asked what the 4 hours work was I would say “Driving the little van”. At this point recording it as work on my tacho of the vehicle in scope of EU regs is not wrong is it? The EU regs clearly state time driving a domestic vehicle counts as work for EU regs. that’s how i understand it. I haven’t seen anything anywhere telling me I must record that 4 hours of van driving as anything other than work. So at the point have I done anything wrong? If that point was 3 hours driving of the EU vehicle - even with the mixed activities ruling I wouldn’t at that point have done anything wrong. I’d be within all driving limits and would have made correct records of my activities.

I fully understand now that when operating under mixed activities I still abide by the Domestic limits (although geebee45 says only driving) but it plainly doesn’t make sense or all these questions wouldn’t be being asked.

Everything else within the various regs makes sense. Everything else is explanable. Mixed EU and domestic activities don’t make sense from what is written - or at least from what I have read which may not be everything.

As tachograph has said - this needs clarifying with more than a post on a forum.

When working to domestic regulations surely you should be recording the driving time in either a log book or on the tachograph if one is being used.

So if the van came under domestic regulations then it is 4 hours of other work for the EU regulations but it’s still 4 hours of driving for the domestic regulations.

So yes I suppose you could manually enter the small van driving as other work on the tachograph but you would or should still have the log sheet to show what you was doing under domestic regulations unless of course you were using a tachograph in the van.

I’m not 100% sure if I’ve understood your problem correctly so sorry if I haven’t.

shep532:
As tachograph has said - this needs clarifying with more than a post on a forum.

I’d be satisfied with a forum post that clearly shows the answer and how or why that answer is reached, the post by ROG does not do that which is why I have a problem with it :wink:

38

tachograph:
So yes I suppose you could manually enter the small van driving as other work on the tachograph but you would or should still have the log sheet to show what you was doing under domestic regulations unless of course you were using a tachograph in the van.

I’m not 100% sure if I’ve understood your problem correctly so sorry if I haven’t.

The driving of the 3.5t van does not require ANY records for domestic rules. It is not in scope of Operator Licensing - therefore exempt record keeping. Not even a log book. After driving it - the only record i would make is one to show work when I then get in the EU vehicle. When stopped by VOSA the ONLY record there would be would be my tacho showing 4 hours of work. Why would they ask what I had been doing during the 4 hours? It was just work, and is recorded accordingly and legally.

This would be much different if (as per the original post) I was driving a HGV that was out of scope of EU regs (animal carcasses etc) for the first part of my journey then in scope for the rest. In this case I can clearly see i would have at least a log book entry showing my driving. When stopped I would show the tacho for the EU and the log book for the domestic. I wouldn’t need to have recorded the 4 hours domestic on my tacho as work as I would have a legally required domestic record (log book) which counts as a record under EU regs

Would be a different matter if the rules said driving of the domestic vehicle counts as driving under EU. Would all make sense then :wink:

As it is - I think it is unclear and soooo open to legal fiddling :wink: I know a company where the lads drive the luton van in the morning and 7.5 t in the afternoon. they record the luton van driving as work on the tacho and at the moment might then drive 9 hours in the 7.5t. Are they legal? According to one little paragraph in the GV262 no they aren’t, but according to their TM he believes they are just about legal because he doesn’t think that one paragraph actually means what it seems to say. he assures me his transport legal advisors have told him what he is doing is on the right side of legal as they believe that under mixed domestic/EU activities they can choose to work to just EU rules for the whole shift.

It seems there is a lot of interpretation going on and i think there is a big difference as to whether an out of scope HGv or a van are involved.

39

ROG:
Hopefully geebee45 will have a few spare mins to post on this …

You must get right on his wick

40

jimboy124:

ROG:
Hopefully geebee45 will have a few spare mins to post on this …

You must get right on his wick

Like Jim moving to TNT. I thought geebee45 had moved on too.

Must be mistaken