Franglais:
As drivers we, I believe should be on more than production-line opos. We shouldn`t be on more than lecturers, or engineers.
Exactly, got it in one, the job does not warrant high wages as it is not viewed nor recognised as a skillful job in the context of your example careers.
UKtramp:
Ok so another edgy post and a good debate hopefully. Why do some drivers big the job up to be something it is not?
A driver who has spent all or most of his working life sat in a truck and now thinks he is worth a lot of money may well be delusional in this frame of thinking. It simply makes him/her a more employable driver, perhaps even a better driver than some other drivers, it gives very little return in monetary terms. Driving is a relatively easy job to do, the longer you do it for, the better at it you become like with any other job. Some aspects of the job require more skill than other aspects, I could mention tankers & car transporters purely as an example. An average EMPLOYED tramper will not be on much more than £12 per hour and even more will be less than £10 per hour. There is a reason for that, you are valuing yourself higher than the job description dictates.
Tbf you make a good point.
Driving a modern truck is more or less basically like driving a bloody big car.
Gone are the days when you had to master techniques like crash boxes for instance when driving a car in comparison was like chalk and cheese, roping and sheeting and the old Trucknet chestnut…using a map efficiently to name a few.
Tbf none of these skills were ever rocket science even then either, but I know a few that could not master one or all of them, could not hack it, and gave up.
Where as today those same guys would (and do) get through the net, as most of the ‘skills’ you had to learn have gone.
So then you get the dumbing down scenario, and a contingent of incompetents that go a long way to fuelling your argument about the amount of money they (and us) should be paid.
Today it is more about adapting to a trucks rather than learning new things in the true sense as you had to in the old days, maybe with the exception of reversing an artic.
So the argument stands in effect, not much skill involved/anybody can do it/why pay them well when you don’t have to.
On the other hand… Is it really feasible and prudent to pay a guy a kick of the arse off minimum wage to drive 44 tonnes of whatever on a busy motorway with all the potential carnage he could cause sharing the road with families in cars buses etc.
Surely a more desirable wage is going to attract a more competent proficient driver with a brain.
If the Status quo (not Rick and Francis) is maintained, and the dumbing down increases, we have the ultimate peanut and monkey situation in the job.
That’s my take on it anyway, so I need 900 a week. 
robroy:
Surely a more desirable wage is going to attract a more competent proficient driver with a brain.
If the Status quo (not Rick and Francis) is maintained, and the dumbing down increases, we have the ultimate peanut and monkey situation in the job.
Exactly this. It is just how the job has gone, chase the money and you will work maxed out hours and give yourself stress, accept the job for what it is and have an easier life.
Franglais:
UKtramp:
Ok so another edgy post and a good debate hopefully. Why do some drivers big the job up to be something it is not?
A driver who has spent all or most of his working life sat in a truck and now thinks he is worth a lot of money may well be delusional in this frame of thinking. It makes him/her a more employable driver, perhaps even a better driver than some other drivers, it gives very little in monetary terms. Driving is a relatively easy job to do, the longer you do it for, the better at it you become like with any other job. Some aspects of the job require more skill than other aspects, I could mention tankers & car transporters purely as an example. But general haulage has a virtual set wage and simply because you value the job higher as you have more experience is not a massive amount. An average EMPLOYED tramper will not be on much more than £12 per hour and even more will be less than £10 per hour. There is a reason for that, you are valuing yourself higher than the job description dictates.Delusional?
Only if the person in question BELIEVES their representation of themselves as superior, surely?
If I tell my boss how great I am to obtain a pay rise then that could be a negotiating tactic. If I sincerely believe I am better than my peers, then maybe I am delusional. (Or not, as I REALLY am great!).An LGV isn
t too shabby. It may not be up to a NVQ or City and Guilds qualification, and certainly isnt a Full Engineering Degree, let alone the PhD required to be lecturer at a University. A driver will (certainly should) with experience get better, as all professionals and craftsmen/women will. A production line operative may well rise to optimum after a few days work, a professional or artisan will learn and improve for years. Some posts need qualifications and experience. A team leader on a design or research project won`t like be appointed straight after their PhD is awarded. A few years in differing posts including a progression of supervisory posts is most likely.So a LGV driver can be fully qualified in a few weeks and learn for a life time thereafter.
A Fully Qualified Scientist may spend 3 yrs (or more) getting one degree. Maybe a couple more yrs on another degree in a seperate field, MSc 2yrs, PhD 2more, (Typically 25 year age min to start lecturing to undergrads) and years beyond that on gaining experience in their field before becoming team leaders and researchers giving advice to bodies such as the Eu legislature. Those are highly qualified people who normally devote their time to following their career, keeping abreast of developments and having an over-riding interest in their area of expertise. They are and should be well rewarded, although they may not, and probably don`t do it “for the cash”.
As drivers we, I believe should be on more than production-line opos. We shouldn`t be on more than lecturers, or engineers.
great post.
tbh I think it shows the importance of decent Unions in working class jobs where degrees aren’t required, The only reason some production line ops are on more than drivers is because of unions and not bending over for company demands.
That said having done both jobs, HGV driving and as a production line worker. Driving a HGV was a walk in the park compared to what I do now. I often wonder how I moaned at all about the job, unless it was about the pay which as we all know, should be better. The place i’m at now has a policy of 3-4 weeks training on the line and getting signed off before being left alone to work, compare that to HGV driving where you can get a licence in 1-2 weeks and then just be thrown in the deep end blows my mind considering the consequences of an error and responsibility of HGV driving.
It’s not all one size fits all out there, either in the world of drivers or jobs, there are drivers who care and those who don’t give a toss and there are still jobs to be found that pay above the average and without having to work all hours God sends.
Drivers can hedge their bets of finding the better work by earning themselves a reputation and rock solid record, be reliable careful punctual, don’t take the ■■■■ or sickies, look after your equipment (no i don’t mean by leaving your boots on the top step and driving in slippers 
) and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages, these better jobs are filled by recommendation or by knocking on the door and making an impression, if you don’t have the right work history or someone respected already there doesn’t vouch for you, sometimes both, you won’t find it easy to get in, these jobs are never advertised and probably never will be.
Driver’s problem is they’ve got increasingly lazy, they want the job simple and easy, well any bloody fool can do simple and easy so as said above no need to offer terms to attract the better employee.
If your search out work that they can’t just grab any passing bod off the street and chuck him on the seat then you’re more difficult to replace, if the job or equipment and/or load is specialised and/or fragile the chances are it’s going to be bloody expensive to fix when joe numpty bends it, again the good driver makes themselves more difficult to replace.
It doesn’t have to be fragile stuff, muck hard work and brass have traditionally gone together too.
Even shop delivery work can be surprisingly well paid, a bit of handball or having to negotiate shopping streets isn’t going to kill anyone, one of my best paid and most enjoyable jobs was on Kwik Save, i came off the transporters for several years to work there and earned more than on the cars at the time.
Its not delusional to make yourself a better employment prospect.
UKtramp:
Ok so another edgy post and a good debate hopefully. Why do some drivers big the job up to be something it is not?
A driver who has spent all or most of his working life sat in a truck and now thinks he is worth a lot of money may well be delusional in this frame of thinking. It simply makes him/her a more employable driver, perhaps even a better driver than some other drivers, it gives very little return in monetary terms. Driving is a relatively easy job to do, the longer you do it for, the better at it you become like with any other job. Some aspects of the job require more skill than other aspects, I could mention tankers & car transporters purely as an example. An average EMPLOYED tramper will not be on much more than £12 per hour and even more will be less than £10 per hour. There is a reason for that, you are valuing yourself higher than the job description dictates.
The real question is, who decides what the job is worth? The workforce or the bosses?
If a boss sets up a new company undercutting the market by paying drivers less or working them far harder, and drivers who need work have to accept the rates on offer, is that the “job description” dictating lower pay, or is it just bosses dictating lower pay?
UKtramp:
Exactly, got it in one, the job does not warrant high wages as it is not viewed nor recognised as a skillful job in the context of your example careers.
In 2015…
541 people were killed whilst using the road as their place of work.
4,822 were seriously injured.
Over 40,000 recieved minor injuries.
Any other industry with those kind of figures would be shut down immediately.
I’m worth a ■■■■ sight more than I currently get just for risking my arse every day.
Juddian has once again nailed it. The basics of HGV driving have indeed become easier, but there are still a lot of jobs which for whatever reason the average driver either can’t, or more likely won’t do. The reasons for this may involve the necessity for nights out, anti-social hours, dirty or unpleasant working conditions and a host of other things which your average nine to five chair polisher doesn’t even think about.
I’m lucky inasmuch as my bosses tend to leave me alone to get on with the job, knowing that if I do encounter a problem I’ll either sort it out myself or ring them if I can’t do so or if there’s a genuine H&S issue which would put me or others at risk. Without wishing to big myself up, I treat my customers (and other road users) as I’d wish to be treated myself and that pays dividends too. You don’t gain respect by not giving it.
One part where I do slightly differ with Juddian is where he says that drivers have become increasingly lazy though; much of this is down to employers discouraging initiative by insisting that employees follow increasingly ■■■■ and restrictive protocols, all well intentioned no doubt but if you lay down a set of rules you need to consider the laws of unintended consequence. Classic example of this is forbidding drivers to change light bulbs or use a torque wrench to check wheelnuts after a tyre change. It must cost companies thousands in unnecessary maintenance fees, but it’s the driver who gets labelled an awkward bugger despite the fact that he’s only doing as he’s been told.
UKtramp:
Ok so another edgy post and a good debate hopefully. Why do some drivers big the job up to be something it is not?
A driver who has spent all or most of his working life sat in a truck and now thinks he is worth a lot of money may well be delusional in this frame of thinking. It simply makes him/her a more employable driver, perhaps even a better driver than some other drivers, it gives very little return in monetary terms. Driving is a relatively easy job to do, the longer you do it for, the better at it you become like with any other job. Some aspects of the job require more skill than other aspects, I could mention tankers & car transporters purely as an example. An average EMPLOYED tramper will not be on much more than £12 per hour and even more will be less than £10 per hour. There is a reason for that, you are valuing yourself higher than the job description dictates.
You appear to have used a ‘one cap fits all’ opinion to form your ‘delusional’ quote. From experience I can firmly disagree with your opinion, but I do understand why you form such an opinion.
Should the day come when HGV drivers realise their worth and the fact everything is moved by road and without HGV drivers this country would grind to a standstill within 72hrs, only then will HGV drivers skills be recognised.
It’s a painful truth that HGV driving is viewed as an unskilled job, something I strongly disagree with. This view needs to change.
Juddian:
[…] and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages,
I tend to think of it as being the other way around, that I’m paying the customer’s wages (and their profits). We aren’t in a customer service industry where the aim is to help people enjoy themselves during their leisure time, and where what pleases the customer is not necessarily your exploitation and subservience (although a minority of customers may enjoy relating to waiters and receptionists in that fashion).
The supposed “customers” are bosses, and your idea of keeping the customer happy, allowed to go to its conclusion, is little different from getting on your knees in Max Clifford’s office.
Rjan:
Juddian:
[…] and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages,I tend to think of it as being the other way around, that I’m paying the customer’s wages (and their profits). We aren’t in a customer service industry where the aim is to help people enjoy themselves during their leisure time, and where what pleases the customer is not necessarily your exploitation and subservience (although a minority of customers may enjoy relating to waiters and receptionists in that fashion).
The supposed “customers” are bosses, and your idea of keeping the customer happy, allowed to go to its conclusion, is little different from getting on your knees in Max Clifford’s office.
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.
When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
I don’t think it’s exclusive to transport, most workers massively over-estimate their own importance and worth, it’s just in transport you get drivers saying ‘without us the shelves would be empty’…without accountants/planners/TMs/shelf stackers etc etc the shelves would be empty. We all work as part of a big human powered machine and rely on each other to do their jobs so we can do ours. No one link in the chain is more important than any other link
Sidevalve:
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
THIS THIS THIS! Often the ones who whinge the most about not being respected are the ones who dress like tramps! If you want respect you have to earn it, it’s not automatic. Dressing smartly for work is one of the easiest and most basic things you can do and trust me, it really does change how people react to you
switchlogic:
Sidevalve:
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
THIS THIS THIS! Often the ones who whinge the most about not being respected are the ones who dress like tramps! If you want respect you have to earn it, it’s not automatic. Dressing smartly for work is one of the easiest and most basic things you can do and trust me, it really does change how people react to you
It comes down to equipment as well. Turn up with smashed up gear, gear that doesn’t work etc and it looks bad. Would you want your products being transported by gear that isn’t fit for purpose?
Rjan:
Juddian:
[…] and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages,I tend to think of it as being the other way around, that I’m paying the customer’s wages (and their profits). We aren’t in a customer service industry where the aim is to help people enjoy themselves during their leisure time, and where what pleases the customer is not necessarily your exploitation and subservience (although a minority of customers may enjoy relating to waiters and receptionists in that fashion).
The supposed “customers” are bosses, and your idea of keeping the customer happy, allowed to go to its conclusion, is little different from getting on your knees in Max Clifford’s office.
So you’re effectively doing the customer a huge favour by carrying his goods, how’s that working out for you?
What part of the customer/supplier relationship don’t you get, customer chooses who supplies him customer pays supplier, customer gets premium product delivered in spotless vehicle and with/through spotless handling or supply equipment, on time and with safety in mind and respecting their receiving equipment premises and people, customers doesn’t look elsewhere when the supply can be relied on absolutely.
Still trying to work out how you’re paying the customer’s wages 
nope doesn’t compute.
If the idea of servicing the Max Cliffords of the world is appealing then by all means do whatever floats your boat, not for me but each to their own and all that, takes all sorts and we’re a broad church here.
Radar19:
switchlogic:
Sidevalve:
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
THIS THIS THIS! Often the ones who whinge the most about not being respected are the ones who dress like tramps! If you want respect you have to earn it, it’s not automatic. Dressing smartly for work is one of the easiest and most basic things you can do and trust me, it really does change how people react to you
It comes down to equipment as well. Turn up with smashed up gear, gear that doesn’t work etc and it looks bad. Would you want your products being transported by gear that isn’t fit for purpose?
^^^ this a hundred fold
UKtramp:
Ok so another edgy post and a good debate hopefully. Why do some drivers big the job up to be something it is not?
A driver who has spent all or most of his working life sat in a truck and now thinks he is worth a lot of money may well be delusional in this frame of thinking. It simply makes him/her a more employable driver, perhaps even a better driver than some other drivers, it gives very little return in monetary terms. Driving is a relatively easy job to do, the longer you do it for, the better at it you become like with any other job. Some aspects of the job require more skill than other aspects, I could mention tankers & car transporters purely as an example. An average EMPLOYED tramper will not be on much more than £12 per hour and even more will be less than £10 per hour. There is a reason for that, you are valuing yourself higher than the job description dictates.
Well I agree … Especially the bit about tanker drivers
Driving a liquid tanker such as the one I haul is not just about hooking up hydraulic lines and pumping loads off, it’s having an actual feel for the vehicle and knowing exactly how the load that is constantly moving around inside the tank will react on certain bends, curves or hills, how it reacts when you use the brakes, it takes time and skill to negotiate country roads without rolling over.
Before I choose to get an hgv licence I interviewed for a conductor role with London midland.
The manager said to me that he thought the role wasn’t well paid because of the job itself, which is quite easy. But he said the pay was for the what if. It pays well because you might have difficult customers, might get assaulted or deal with a major incident etc.
I think the same logic could apply to lorry driving. Maybe actually driving isn’t that hard. But lorry drivers should earn a higher rate than some other professions because of the what if. You’re entrusted not to cause an accident or kill anyone. You might have to deal with an accident. You have to deal with adverse weather and deal with the unexpected. Doesn’t the out of the ordinary what if situations raise the job up above a shop worker or whatever?
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
Sidevalve:
Rjan:
Juddian:
[…] and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages,I tend to think of it as being the other way around, that I’m paying the customer’s wages (and their profits). We aren’t in a customer service industry where the aim is to help people enjoy themselves during their leisure time, and where what pleases the customer is not necessarily your exploitation and subservience (although a minority of customers may enjoy relating to waiters and receptionists in that fashion).
The supposed “customers” are bosses, and your idea of keeping the customer happy, allowed to go to its conclusion, is little different from getting on your knees in Max Clifford’s office.
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.
I guess I do look after customers, but I look after them the same as I look after the lady who needs help crossing the road, the man who stops me to ask for directions. “Customers”, by which we actually mean bosses in this context, get no special treatment whatsoever, if they were expecting any.
Incidentally, “customers” properly so-called, by which I mean consumers dealing domestically or in their leisure time with a business, are often shafted by bosses the same as workers are, if it means making a quick buck.
And since when did anyone need a customer (of any description) as a reason to turn up to work reasonably dressed, to be polite to others, to be efficient and effective in one’s own work? Do monkeys in trees even wake up every day with the intention of irking every other, and of being so incompetent that they fall from every vine and drop every banana they grab?
When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
I don’t generally pretend to represent any of them. Nobody, in my experience, even expects me to, unless they were labouring briefly under the misapprehension that I actually plan the movement of goods and am responsible for lateness or shortages or whatever.
And in fact, if today’s boss lost business, I’d probably end up employed by tomorrow’s boss, because I’m paying their wages and creating their profits, remember, not the other way around. My work is a key factor in production; their contractual arrangements in which bosses recast themselves as my (and each other’s) “customers” are certainly not a key factor in getting work done.
It’s actually just an inefficient charade whose primary economic function is to disrupt workers’ solidarity and attack settled pay and conditions - and, evidently from this conversation, workers have forgotten so much about class relations that it actually works.
The reason why industrial consolidation and vertical integration was the name of the game until the 1980s is because it’s actually vastly more efficient in a variety of respects - it’s how the West became an economic powerhouse, how men were put on the moon, how world wars were won, and how good public services from cradle to grave were afforded. Even morally shadier exploits, such as the conquest of Africa and the Far East, were not achieved by some wobbly hierarchy of two-bit businessmen all calling themselves each other’s “customers”.
Rjan:
Sidevalve:
Rjan:
Juddian:
[…] and most especially look after the customer who after all actually pays all of our wages,I tend to think of it as being the other way around, that I’m paying the customer’s wages (and their profits). We aren’t in a customer service industry where the aim is to help people enjoy themselves during their leisure time, and where what pleases the customer is not necessarily your exploitation and subservience (although a minority of customers may enjoy relating to waiters and receptionists in that fashion).
The supposed “customers” are bosses, and your idea of keeping the customer happy, allowed to go to its conclusion, is little different from getting on your knees in Max Clifford’s office.
You don’t have to be subservient to look after a customer well. Being smart, presentable, efficient and polite isn’t akin to toadying, it’s a key part of being professional; which, before anyone says lorry drivers don’t merit such a description, is defined in the OED as “Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”.
I guess I do look after customers, but I look after them the same as I look after the lady who needs help crossing the road, the man who stops me to ask for directions. “Customers”, by which we actually mean bosses in this context, get no special treatment whatsoever, if they were expecting any.
Incidentally, “customers” properly so-called, by which I mean consumers dealing domestically or in their leisure time with a business, are often shafted by bosses the same as workers are, if it means making a quick buck.
And since when did anyone need a customer (of any description) as a reason to turn up to work reasonably dressed, to be polite to others, to be efficient and effective in one’s own work? Do monkeys in trees even wake up every day with the intention of irking every other, and of being so incompetent that they fall from every vine and drop every banana they grab?
When you, as a driver, deliver something you are representing not only your own employer but in the case of general haulage your employer’s customer too; and by doing your own job well you are helping to ensure repeat business for both which keeps you in a job. It really is that simple.
I don’t generally pretend to represent any of them. Nobody, in my experience, even expects me to, unless they were labouring briefly under the misapprehension that I actually plan the movement of goods and am responsible for lateness or shortages or whatever.
And in fact, if today’s boss lost business, I’d probably end up employed by tomorrow’s boss, because I’m paying their wages and creating their profits, remember, not the other way around. My work is a key factor in production; their contractual arrangements in which bosses recast themselves as my (and each other’s) “customers” are certainly not a key factor in getting work done.
It’s actually just an inefficient charade whose primary economic function is to disrupt workers’ solidarity and attack settled pay and conditions - and, evidently from this conversation, workers have forgotten so much about class relations that it actually works.
The reason why industrial consolidation and vertical integration was the name of the game until the 1980s is because it’s actually vastly more efficient in a variety of respects - it’s how the West became an economic powerhouse, how men were put on the moon, how world wars were won, and how good public services from cradle to grave were afforded. Even morally shadier exploits, such as the conquest of Africa and the Far East, were not achieved by some wobbly hierarchy of two-bit businessmen all calling themselves each other’s “customers”.
Sounds to me like you’d be better employed as one of Jeremy Corbyn’s speechwriters than as a lorry driver. 
