You’re both kind of right, but also missing the point. Concentrating on night’s out when it was just an example of the extra outlay on a job.
It does however raise another point, just because you cover your fixed costs on the first run doesn’t mean that the second run should be cheaper as your costs have been covered. That’s like doing overtime for less than your hourly rate!
It doesn’t matter if it’s the first second or third job, or whatever kind of bonus load it is, it should be charged at the full rate. That rate should be enough to cover all the fixed and variable costs incurred. Now that is easy on a run that lasts all week as you add everything up, add your profit and there’s the magic number. When doing multiple runs per day/week you have to work it out on a mileage and hourly rate and then make sure the lorry does enough miles/hours to make the magic number by the end of the week.
Not an easy task when port delays, traffic hold ups, WTD ■■■■■■■■, driver’s hours regs and about a million and one other things all enter the equation.
It is however a bit easier for a larger company as they should run the right amount of lorries to keep them all busy during the quietest times and sub out the excess when it’s busy. That is the optimum way to do it in my opinion.
I’m not an expert, I also don’t know the details behind the Deben collapse, but I do know that they were operating at a huge loss, so at a guess I would say they weren’t charging enough for their services.
newmercman:
You’re both kind of right, but also missing the point. Concentrating on night’s out when it was just an example of the extra outlay on a job.
It does however raise another point, just because you cover your fixed costs on the first run doesn’t mean that the second run should be cheaper as your costs have been covered. That’s like doing overtime for less than your hourly rate!
It doesn’t matter if it’s the first second or third job, or whatever kind of bonus load it is, it should be charged at the full rate. That rate should be enough to cover all the fixed and variable costs incurred. Now that is easy on a run that lasts all week as you add everything up, add your profit and there’s the magic number. When doing multiple runs per day/week you have to work it out on a mileage and hourly rate and then make sure the lorry does enough miles/hours to make the magic number by the end of the week.
Not an easy task when port delays, traffic hold ups, WTD ■■■■■■■■, driver’s hours regs and about a million and one other things all enter the equation.
It is however a bit easier for a larger company as they should run the right amount of lorries to keep them all busy during the quietest times and sub out the excess when it’s busy. That is the optimum way to do it in my opinion.
I’m not an expert, I also don’t know the details behind the Deben collapse, but I do know that they were operating at a huge loss, so at a guess I would say they weren’t charging enough for their services.
You are correct to say that any job should be charged at the full rate to cover all cost incurred, but the fact is, that the haulage industry has habitually undercut each other, that is how the free market works rightly or wrongly
I don’t know what was the final nail in Debens coffin, but they must have been running at loss for some time, which would suggest that there trading model had failed them, and as always is down to the Management
stopped running as an o/d for P&O in 1995 as the rates were pants based on pence per mile, as a subby you were always given the longer unloads strip downs etc. all of which decrease the profit you make.
think my final straw was at a reload where after sitting 8 hours waiting in a queue I was told am next but they are on a break now, when I said f/off am off the bloke got really arsey. went home called finance company to pick trucks up and that was it.
war1974:
stopped running as an o/d for P&O in 1995 as the rates were pants based on pence per mile, as a subby you were always given the longer unloads strip downs etc. all of which decrease the profit you make.
think my final straw was at a reload where after sitting 8 hours waiting in a queue I was told am next but they are on a break now, when I said f/off am off the bloke got really arsey. went home called finance company to pick trucks up and that was it.
Retired know but was first in the container industry in the late 1960s Seawheel, Dart Containline - things have no changed a bit!!
I think the main reasons for Deben going down:
taking on Elite for £350k plus of receiver - clearly they could could not cover that cost - you have be very profitable to play that game
The Finance Director being off sick for that length of time and finally dying will have had a huge effect on financial management at a risky time.
Great shame - they cannot all be Russell Davies’s etc etc
Feel sorry for the subbies - big losses to are hard to catch up on - they never really will
One point missed on the night out theme, if said driver did have a night out at Welford, for arguments sake, then he would have a 2 and a half hour trip back to Felixstowe the next morning. Factor in a 15 min walk round, 90 min turn around, 15 mins for diesel and 15 mins for the driver to have a crap and buy a bacon sarnie, then almost 5 hours gone before you set off with the first job of the day, almost always renders it a 1 job day. Now all of a sudden you can see where it all goes wrong. And in response to an earlier post, Deben never bought Catalyst. They went to the wall. Deben may have taken the work on, but I don’t know that for sure
On the wider picture off the state off haulage rates, port delays etc,
I just felt that too intimate that a job that would be no more than a day job, but that the haulier uses as a 2nd job, thus incurring the extra cost off a night away, was not taking account as to the extra revenue generated by doing that job
OVLOV JAY:
One point missed on the night out theme, if said driver did have a night out at Welford, for arguments sake, then he would have a 2 and a half hour trip back to Felixstowe the next morning. Factor in a 15 min walk round, 90 min turn around, 15 mins for diesel and 15 mins for the driver to have a crap and buy a bacon sarnie, then almost 5 hours gone before you set off with the first job of the day, almost always renders it a 1 job day. Now all of a sudden you can see where it all goes wrong.
Yes see what you’re saying with that, but as your 5 hr timing, which is very credible, would still be taken into account as part off the job if it was the only job off the day, I cant really see were it would be an extra cost to that particular job, Whether 1st 2nd 3rd etc.
So would it be better to not do the 2nd job on the 1st day, and then have just 2 jobs in 2 days instead off 3 in 2 days.
When I was at Kembals on spot hire, I’d only be averaging about 75-80hrs driving a fortnight(and spending a lot of nights in the yard ). Now I’m averaging 85-90hrs driving a fortnight, this must surely be more productive as I’m utilising maximum driving hours. Where at Kembals I was effectively losing in excess of a days production a fortnight. And yes I do a lot off 2nd jobs, though I’m on a night away every night regardless
Driving hours and productivity don’t always make money. All depends on the rates. Our subbies do Tilbury to Dartford round trip for £125. Roughly 30 mile round trip, over £4 per mile. Not a bad day if you do 2. £250 for 60 miles. A £250 job for a blue chip will normally be in the region of 150-175 miles. Turnover=vanity profit=sanity
OVLOV JAY:
Driving hours and productivity don’t always make money. All depends on the rates. Our subbies do Tilbury to Dartford round trip for £125. Roughly 30 mile round trip, over £4 per mile. Not a bad day if you do 2. £250 for 60 miles. A £250 job for a blue chip will normally be in the region of 150-175 miles. Turnover=vanity profit=sanity
That is true, but a motor standing can only lose money, if its running there’s fighting chance to make money
You’re right there, but it’s not a one size fits all thing. That’s why you look at some of the smaller firms on boxes, and some seem to thrive against the odds, and then someone like deben goes under, against public perception. Truth is, nobody knows the inner workings of other companies
OVLOV JAY:
You’re right there, but it’s not a one size fits all thing. That’s why you look at some of the smaller firms on boxes, and some seem to thrive against the odds, and then someone like deben goes under, against public perception. Truth is, nobody knows the inner workings of other companies
Well there is one common factor to most, business failures, bad management. If they are selling the services/products at a loss, or if the employees, through ineffecient work practices are unproductive, that is either systemic work practices, or individual work practices, then that is the responsibility off the Management to change, and to take the work force with them. The one sure thing is, that the employees shut out off Deben this week will end up out off pocket. I suspect that those who had claimed to manage the company probably wont
You’re right there, they know what’s coming so feather their nest accordingly. When catalyst went down, a good mate of mine was owed in the region of 1300 quid. Took him almost a year through the government system and he ended up with 500. His uncle ran the firm but he did ok
There is simply not enough money to be made hauling containers, they had new trucks new trls and drivers and agency men on good money , I tried when I had a contract finish , with trucks tha was bought and paid for , probably lost about £600 a week per truck for two months, tried two container company’s both was rubbish. I pulled the trucks off and laid the drivers off in the end, should have done it sooner in hi dsight
war1974:
stopped running as an o/d for P&O in 1995 as the rates were pants based on pence per mile, as a subby you were always given the longer unloads strip downs etc. all of which decrease the profit you make.
think my final straw was at a reload where after sitting 8 hours waiting in a queue I was told am next but they are on a break now, when I said f/off am off the bloke got really arsey. went home called finance company to pick trucks up and that was it.
Retired know but was first in the container industry in the late 1960s Seawheel, Dart Containline - things have no changed a bit!!
I think the main reasons for Deben going down:
taking on Elite for £350k plus of receiver - clearly they could could not cover that cost - you have be very profitable to play that game
The Finance Director being off sick for that length of time and finally dying will have had a huge effect on financial management at a risky time.
Great shame - they cannot all be Russell Davies’s etc etc
Back to my first post then BAD MANAGEMENT at board level, directors should be ashamed of themselves…!!!
Feel sorry for the subbies - big losses to are hard to catch up on - they never really will
richmond:
There is simply not enough money to be made hauling containers
Not true. My firm are very successful, but my boss works on a profit percentage of 40%. He’s not dictated to. If the shipping lines won’t accept his rates, he won’t pull their boxes, simple. I know this to be true as we had a lengthy chat about me coming off the road. And my best mates wife is in the finance department, and she was authorised to pay for the last 5 volvos we had, £465k cash. None of our fleet is on finance
richmond:
There is simply not enough money to be made hauling containers
Not true. My firm are very successful, but my boss works on a profit percentage of 40%. He’s not dictated to. If the shipping lines won’t accept his rates, he won’t pull their boxes, simple. I know this to be true as we had a lengthy chat about me coming off the road. And my best mates wife is in the finance department, and she was authorised to pay for the last 5 volvos we had, £465k cash. None of our fleet is on finance
I don’t know the mechanics of the business I work for, but they seem to be doing very well from Containers, and as drivers we aren’t doing to badly from it either. They set out with a goal off being big enough to bid for direct contracts, with shippers and costumers, which they have done. They also ran a secondhand fleet to start with, and didn’t get anything new til they’d been trading for about 5 yrs. At which point they were getting decent contracts, and decent contracts need a reliable fleet
One thing I’ve noticed is that the business has doubled in the last couple off years, and as this has happened the quality of the drivers recruited (sorry if this sounds snobby) has dropped, some off the guys at our place now, seem to have no initiative, and have to be spoon fed with instructions like a toddler mini rant sorry
richmond:
There is simply not enough money to be made hauling containers
Not true. My firm are very successful, but my boss works on a profit percentage of 40%. He’s not dictated to. If the shipping lines won’t accept his rates, he won’t pull their boxes, simple. I know this to be true as we had a lengthy chat about me coming off the road. And my best mates wife is in the finance department, and she was authorised to pay for the last 5 volvos we had, £465k cash. None of our fleet is on finance
That is some margin. theloadstar.co.uk/ Rates are cut to the bone at the moment. Shipping lines must be most impressed with the sales technique and brand new trucks your boss has.
Not sure your boss will thank you for telling us all about his business. He had better be getting that sort of return if he spends half a million quid in cash on trucks that will lose a hefty wedge as soon as they are driven out of the dealers.
Went past the Southampton depot at Nursling this morning. Lots of Volvo’s parked up and a piece of card tied to the gate saying " No Fuel". I thought how sad it all looked, and that my best wishes went to all the ex drivers in their quest for further employment.
). Now I’m averaging 85-90hrs driving a fortnight, this must surely be more productive as I’m utilising maximum driving hours. Where at Kembals I was effectively losing in excess of a days production a fortnight. And yes I do a lot off 2nd jobs, though I’m on a night away every night regardless 