Driveroneuk:
depending how many horses there are under the bonnet.
I’d suggest you put 'em in the trailer, or else you’ll have the RSPCA after you as well! 
if you want to save some road tax, get yourself a pre-2003 Land-Rover or Range Rover as they don’t qualify for the VED escalator; preferably one with an LPG conversion.
repton:
Saaamon:
cieranc:
So if your donkey box has a plate on with over 1500kgs on it, the vosa will jump on you.Isnt that ment to be in the mmtm thread?
It should be, we did this in another thread a few weeks back and assuming you have B+E (or C+E) on your licence it is the ACTUAL weight of the trailer that matters not the PLATED weight.
Paul
Not so much MMTM, more the VOSA. We contract to VOSA for recovery, and have been asked to move a fair few EMPTY trailers.
Last one was an empty Brian James car transporter, being towed by a Mondeo. The driver wasn’t allowed to continue his journey with the empty trailer, as the GVW on the trailer plate was 2800kgs, more than the Mondeo was allowed to tow.
Rights or wrongs I don’t know, we just get on and do the job (it was the car driver who’d asked us to recover the trailer, not vosa).
How about a petrol Discovery that runs on LPG?
We have 5 horses, an old sinclair horse trailer and use a 97 diesel discovery to tow it. I run that on biodiesel when I can get it which brings costs down a lot.
You need to be carefull with horse trailers and horse boxes as there is the whole hire or reward issue as well. If you are winning anything (even just rosettes) then it can be deemed as a reward. VOSA are starting to show interest in this area.
Look - it’s simples:
Buy the Focus and put some shafts on the trailer. Then you can use the horse to tow it with the car inside.
cieranc:
Not so much MMTM, more the VOSA. We contract to VOSA for recovery, and have been asked to move a fair few EMPTY trailers.
Last one was an empty Brian James car transporter, being towed by a Mondeo. The driver wasn’t allowed to continue his journey with the empty trailer, as the GVW on the trailer plate was 2800kgs, more than the Mondeo was allowed to tow.Rights or wrongs I don’t know, we just get on and do the job (it was the car driver who’d asked us to recover the trailer, not vosa).
There is certainly no law related to the plated weight for a B+E licence holder. In the other recent thread about it I found a DFT guide to towing horse boxes that confirmed this and geebee45 a few posts up in this thread has also confirmed it (and he is a VOSA employee so he should know).
In the example you quote the issue will either have been that the car driver passed their test after 1997 and therefore didn’t have B+E on their licence or that someone involved didn’t know the law properly.
If the law was related to plated weight then almost everyone who tows a 3500kg plant trailer would be doing so illegally as very few vehicles are plated to legally tow the full 3500kg.
Paul
cieranc:
Not so much MMTM, more the VOSA. We contract to VOSA for recovery, and have been asked to move a fair few EMPTY trailers.
Last one was an empty Brian James car transporter, being towed by a Mondeo. The driver wasn’t allowed to continue his journey with the empty trailer, as the GVW on the trailer plate was 2800kgs, more than the Mondeo was allowed to tow.Rights or wrongs I don’t know, we just get on and do the job (it was the car driver who’d asked us to recover the trailer, not vosa).
Don’t worry about ‘plated weights’ when looking at a cars (4x4s) towing capacity, it goes on what the trailer + load ACTUALLY weighs. In the UK there is no relationship between maximum towable trailer weight (for a car/4x4) and the ‘plated weight’ of the trailer.
seems some of them need to learn the rules then 
Seems a few appeals and test cases are long overdue
Deepinvet:
The gross weight of what ever you tow should never be more than 100% of the weight of the tow vehicle, irrespective of size make or gear box… And ideally around the 70-80% mark, or you will have the tail wagging the dog and it WILL tip over…
That’s all artics off the road tomorrow then.
BMW 530D can and will tow 2 ton no problem and safely while still returning some sort of reasonable mpg but tbh a 4x4 bigger than a freelander is ideally what your after. You could tow your horsebox with a focus…but 1) youll be going very slow and 2) it will snake like no end once you get about 50 also itll be very illegal, I used to tow 1750kgs with my saab regularly which can tow 1800…its not something i enjoyed much but was lucky that i only had a 15 mile journey each way to the track but used to take like half an hour
Driveroneuk:
Indeed Harry. I’d suggest a Focus as a medium sized car isn’t up to the job. If it must be pulled by car I’d suggest it would need to be a bigger Audi, Volvo, Merc, etc.
You don’t see many cars pulling horse boxes these days, mostly 4x4’s.Also of course you’d need to look into licensing category required.
Need to know more about the box really, they vary in quality/weight. Single/double, etc?
Not for a horse box, but I got a BMW 530d Touring to tow my caravan. It has air rear suspension, so always sits level, and has a 2t towing capacity, which should be enough for your pony.
Was actually looking for a Merc E320 CDI Estate which has the same bonus’, but struggled to find any decent ones.
One other thing to think of is will a Focus pull a laden horse trailer out of a wet muddy show field?
skids:
One other thing to think of is will a Focus pull a laden horse trailer out of a wet muddy show field?
I think any ‘car’ would struggle. Maybe an Audi Allroad or similar might? Other than that, you’re into 4x4 territory. Might be worth a look at a Scenic RX4?
The car plate will have a maximum train weight stamped on it, which is the maximum weight of the complete unit. My Mondeo’s instruction book sayes it will tow a 1800kg trailor but if you add any weight to the car it comes off the towing capacity bringing the maximum towing weight to around 1450kg
Thanks for the input, and people have been mentioning categories of licence and I have C+E.
Prior to the freelander I had VW touraeg, what a car! Got to the point where the thick end of £100 per week was going in the tank 
Had a heavy right foot in that, so quick. Downsized to the freelander, sold my trailer 2 months ago and now looking at options. I can rent a trailer for £30 or rent a horsebox for £79 both day rates. The amount of times I’ll need it made selling the trailer a no-brainer. My daughter no longer competes and it’s now become the wifes hobby 
Thats me pennyless for the foreseeable future
repton:
cieranc:
Not so much MMTM, more the VOSA. We contract to VOSA for recovery, and have been asked to move a fair few EMPTY trailers.
Last one was an empty Brian James car transporter, being towed by a Mondeo. The driver wasn’t allowed to continue his journey with the empty trailer, as the GVW on the trailer plate was 2800kgs, more than the Mondeo was allowed to tow.Rights or wrongs I don’t know, we just get on and do the job (it was the car driver who’d asked us to recover the trailer, not vosa).
There is certainly no law related to the plated weight for a B+E licence holder. In the other recent thread about it I found a DFT guide to towing horse boxes that confirmed this and geebee45 a few posts up in this thread has also confirmed it (and he is a VOSA employee so he should know).
In the example you quote the issue will either have been that the car driver passed their test after 1997 and therefore didn’t have B+E on their licence or that someone involved didn’t know the law properly.
The confusion undoubtedly comes from the law around towing with a category B vehicle being based around Maximum Authorised Mass (i.e. plated mass) in one area and actual weight in another.
The rules on whether a combination is Category B or BE depend on MAM.
Under the current rules, the combination is Category B if the tow vehicle is category B and:* the trailer MAM is 750kg or less, or
The definitions of category B and BE in respect of towing will change on 19 January 2013 when the UK implements the Third Driving Licence Directive via the The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/977). The new rules are really difficult to read, because they amend the existing regulations rather than replace them with a new consolidated set. In this case, it’s the Schedule 3 amendments to the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2864) as amended that we are interested in, especially the amendments to Schedule 2.
From the implementation of the new regulations:
A combination is category B if:* the trailer MAM is 750kg or less, or
Category BE will only allow towing trailers up to and including 3500kg MAM, though BE entitlement gained on or before 18 January 2013 will remain free of a trailer MAM limit.
A category B vehicle plus a trailer of more than 3500kg MAM will require C1E (or CE) entitlement.
A new category, B96, will allow towing a trailer over 750kg MAM with combination MAM between 3500 and 4250kg. The UK will not grant B96 entitlement, but will include it on the UK licences issued in exchange for an EU licence with B96 entitlement
The new category B rules are less restrictive than at present, as the requirement for vehicle unladen weight to exceed trailer MAM when towing a trailer of more than 750kg MAM disappears. Nevertheless, it is still recommended that the actual mass of the trailer is no more than the actual mass of the vehicle. Ideally, the trailer mass should be no more than 80% of the vehicle mass.
The rules on overloading depend on actual mass. So long as vehicle actual mass does not exceed vehicle MAM, trailer actual mass does not exceed trailer MAM, and the actual mass of the combination does not exceed the GCW (maximum train mass) of the vehicle, the combination is legal.
Edit: corrected the existing category B ‘ratio’ rule (vehicle unladen weight must exceed trailer MAM) to refer to the unladen weight of the vehicle, not the MAM, plus consequential changes.
Fileep:
I have C+E.
Fileep:
I am swapping my car, currently have a 2006 Landrover Freelander, road tax is £460 per yearIts an auto and is horrendous on fuel, need to save a bit of cash. I use it to tow an Ifor williams horse trailer which it does quite well. I have seen a Ford Focus 1.8 TDCI, will this be able to do the same job? Not sure what the rules are when it comes to towing?
cuddles.abelgratis.net/ford.htm#focus306 The 1.8 TDCI towing capacity is 1500 kgs
500 kg horse leaves 1000 for the unladen weight of the trailer and the trailer MAM needds to be anything from 1500 to 3500
Most Ifor horse trailers are 770 to 905 kgs unladen so that leaves almost 600 kgs for a horse
Does the new rules mean that you will not be able to tow anything even a 750 kg trailer if you are driving a 3500kg van with only cat b, that’s how it reads
Wannabeheretolearn:
Does the new rules mean that you will not be able to tow anything even a 750 kg trailer if you are driving a 3500kg van with only cat b, that’s how it reads
djw:
From the implementation of the new regulations:A combination is category B if:* the trailer MAM is 750kg or less, or
- the vehicle MAM and trailer MAM added together do not exceed 3500kg
The ‘or’ at the end of the first bullet point gives the answer.
3500kg MAM van plus 750kg MAM trailer is the first bullet point - it’s category B. However, 3500kg MAM van plus 751kg MAM trailer satisfies neither bullet point, so is category BE as at present.
As I said:
djw:
The new category B rules are less restrictive than at present, as the requirement for vehicle unladen weight to exceed trailer MAM when towing a trailer of more than 750kg MAM disappears.
That is the only change in category B - there is no change with trailers of 750kg MAM or less. When towed by a category B vehicle, a 750kg or less MAM trailer is category B under the current and post-January 2013 rules.
djw:
Wannabeheretolearn:
Does the new rules mean that you will not be able to tow anything even a 750 kg trailer if you are driving a 3500kg van with only cat b, that’s how it readsdjw:
From the implementation of the new regulations:A combination is category B if:* the trailer MAM is 750kg or less, or
- the vehicle MAM and trailer MAM added together do not exceed 3500kg
The ‘or’ at the end of the first bullet point gives the answer.
3500kg MAM van plus 750kg MAM trailer is the first bullet point - it’s category B. However, 3500kg MAM van plus 751kg MAM trailer satisfies neither bullet point, so is category BE as at present.
As I said:
djw:
The new category B rules are less restrictive than at present, as the requirement for vehicle unladen weight to exceed trailer MAM when towing a trailer of more than 750kg MAM disappears.That is the only change in category B - there is no change with trailers of 750kg MAM or less. When towed by a category B vehicle, a 750kg or less MAM trailer is category B under the current and post-January 2013 rules.
That’s how I read it, I got pulled MANY years ago towing my caravan and got told that I shouldn’t have been doing it and was going to kill everyone on the road and wreak havoc, although I drove articualted busses around London or Manchester for a living, the caravan was just too damned heavy
Simple dont tow the bloody thing about.You horsey folk are a pain in the backside same as caravans
Wannabeheretolearn:
Does the new rules mean that you will not be able to tow anything even a 750 kg trailer if you are driving a 3500kg van with only cat b, that’s how it reads
That release by the DVLA is a rough outline of the PROPOSED changes coming into force in Jan 2013
It has been very poorly written and contacting DVLA about them confirms this
The DVLA said to wait until December of this year when any changes get put into law to see what any actual differences will be
From conversations with the DVLA it seems that the only major change from the current B category rules is that of towing a trailer over 3500 kgs where new drivers will need a C1+E
I don’t know of anyone who has a trailer over 3500 MAM and tows it with a B category vehicle because those trailers come under different construction rules
The rest of those proposals have also caused concern in relation to LGV & PCV rules but yet again, wait to see what gets put into law
IMO the DVLA were very unwise to release this in its current wording as it just confuses a lot of people
I think I put this on another thread but it might be useful to post it again …
I hope you will find this useful - many other sites have.
GOOGLE (copy & paste) the title below to confirm this.
Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained
Trailer MAM means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load)
Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles, those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.
Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
None of the above weights must be exceeded
Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together
FOR B+E LICENCES
Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800
Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal
FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so perhaps my simpler way of explaining will help…
To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to comply with these rules:-
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be more than the UNLADEN/KERB weight of the towing vehicle
The GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer must not add up to more than 3500 kgs
The ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load must not be more than the listed towing capacity
Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found…
Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800
Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)
Load trailer with 700 max
Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800
Here is another way of looking at the B licence towing rules with examples:-
RULE 1 - The gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight.
RULE 2 - Also, the sum of the vehicle gross plated weight (GVW) and the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) cannot exceed 3500kg.
Examples:-
Vehicle 1200kg kerbweight, 1700kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 1
Vehicle 1500kg kerbweight, 2000kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500kg SEE RULES 1 & 2
Vehicle 1800kg kerbweight, 2300kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 2
The weight which can be loaded on the trailer is the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) minus the trailer unladen weight
Trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500 with unladen weight 900 = a maximum load of 600
The listed maximum towing capacity for a vehicle must not be exceeded - that is actual weight not plated MAM weight
Although there is not a specific law which states this there are other laws which can be used if the combination (vehicle & trailer) is deemed unsafe.
Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice
SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-
The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test
DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos
I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules