Healthy competition in the transport sector is a good thing its a leveler, those who cut corners and do it on the cheap don’t last long and even today there are companies willing to pay up for service especially as its mostly JIT there after as no one keeps massive stocks anymore, got me tin hat on and retreating to me bunker Buzzer.
Very true words Buzzer, I find that good service wins jobs every time, I have customers who place a request and never ask the cost,never rip them off and have had some of these companies on my books for 10 years.
Bewick:
Dear oh dear !! A few may be disappointedbut many will be delighted
that I really do not have the remotest of constructive comments to post on this fantasy Thread I really don’t, end of !
+One.
Dennis Stobart has a ring to it ?
Stobwick ?
Bewbart ?
Sorry Dennis but ain’t much else to do these day’s
Carrywick would a force to reckon with.
Befast ?
Bewick:
Dear oh dear !! A few may be disappointed
Of COURSE it’s a fantasy thread, Dennis! Road transport is far too diverse to nationalise. And I certainly have no political axe to grind. I’d probably nationalise education but not the lorries. Wink 
! Ro
Buzzer:
Bewick:
Dear oh dear !! A few may be disappointedNot even with a reincarnation of a fleet of 500 GUY Big J.s with 8 pot Gardners in em, Dennis don’t tell me you would’nt be tempted.
Standardising on Guy Big-J 8-potters would suit the likes of me but not the bean-counters, once BL and Gardner realised there was no competition. That said, the prospect of a 21st cen. BRS populated with thousands of Turkish supplied Otosan artics might raise a few eyebrows - especially if they all came in LHD ! Ro
ERF-NGC-European:
dieseldave:
ERF-NGC-European:
… (think Hungarocamion, CZAD, Sovtransauto et al)?Your thoughts, gentlemen, on the present; your reflections on the past; and your hopes for the future, please.
Ro
I can add a few hazy memories:
VEB Deutrans (DDR)
VEK Deutrans (DDR)
PeKaEs (Poland)
Sofimat(?) (Bulgaria)
“F” Troop (Help!! - I can’t remember their proper name
) (Romania)
Ah yes! Somat in Bulgaria. Rom-Trans in Rumo. And I’ve just remembered CSAD in Czechoslovakia.
Ro
I also remember that Sovtransavto were also known as Gorbachev Trucking. 
Realistically unless it goes hand in hand with protectionist policies like 50% at least of all import export freight movements have to go on a Brit registered truck and allowing the use of red diesel and LHV’s it would be a waste of public money.
Just like ploughing a fortune into BL, while at the same time allowing an open door imports policy and using punitive taxation and suicidal vehicle dimensions and gross weight limits, to deter car and truck use, was.
That’s the type of retards that we allow to govern us. 
Bewick:
Dear oh dear !! A few may be disappointed
Look on the bright side Bewick.I’m sure we could have agreed a very advantageous early retirement package for you in exchange for your customer base.With the advantage that you would have had a whole fleet of redundant Gardner engined junk, when we modernised to your fleet to Bedford TM drawbar outfits, to stash away in your numerous barns scattered around the very respectable country pile that would have gone with the deal.I’m sure we could also have found you an advisory role for a suitable retainer.
Natonalisation is great if it’s done right.
From a drivers point of view ,its the best thing that could happen from what i read on T N, it could bring back a level playing field on the wages and expenses side of things,the majority of drivers seem to be looking around to where they can change to a “better” job , a brs depot with a decent shop steward should fill their needs very well , it would only cost a few bob a week . toshboy
The consensus on here seems to be that, from a driver’s point of view, a “re-incarnated BRS” would be a good thing. It may well be from that side of the fence but as someone who was on the other side of the equation it was a total screw-up. From what I experienced during my time in the late 70’s to the mid 80’s the standard of management was extremely poor. Most managers were weak and promoted way above their ability, normally due to nepotism and cronyism. Local industrial disputes were to be avoided at all times as they could well spread into a national one. This meant that members of staff who weren’t pulling their weight were allowed to affect the running of the depot. I remember one depot I was at in the late 70’s when they introduced the computerisation of back loads (I think it was called datafreight or something along those lines). The system was linked between all the depots so in theory you could access the details of every back-load in every part of the country. The back-loads were available to not only BRS companies but to independent hauliers. This system relied on drivers calling a dedicated phone line and the traffic clerk would look at his screen and let the driver know what loads were available. The traffic clerk in this depot seen this as a threat to his job and actually pulled the telephone cable from the socket (in those days they were hard wired so no mean feat) so no calls were received. There was no way the branch manager could not have been aware of this but for some reason he never challenged the traffic clerk about it. This particular manager was the son of a, by then, retired former director. He ended up being a director himself. This is only one example of lots of bad practice that I encountered. With management like that you stood very little chance. In saying that making a profit was never encouraged as the attitude was that “if you make a profit this year they will expect you to make a profit next year”. It was a crazy mindset whereby running at a loss was almost sanctioned by those in command. That attitude appeared to change slightly post privatisation but the problem was that the same management team were in place so in effect nothing really changed.
In my opinion a 21st century BRS would suffer from the same disease.
Well written dennis,and yes as a ex BRS DRIVER 1969 1980 you are correct but that was what nationalization was about like all the other industries
we had in this country that all went to the wall, but so what why let one man make loads of money ,why not let everyone have a little slice of a easy good life… look now ,where is the profit, we are all the same, work ,earn money, live ,if everything was nationalized now would it be better than all the private firms having problems…
peggydeckboy:
Well written dennis,and yes as a ex BRS DRIVER 1969 1980 you are correct but that was what nationalization was about like all the other industries
we had in this country that all went to the wall, but so what why let one man make loads of money ,why not let everyone have a little slice of a easy good life… look now ,where is the profit, we are all the same, work ,earn money, live ,if everything was nationalized now would it be better than all the private firms having problems…
I’m all for everyone getting a fair share of the pot but it has to work both ways. Why should someone who puts in a good days work get the same pay as someone who slacks off at every opportunity? A strong union is not there just to protect the weak. It also should accept the responsibility for weeding out the bad apples (in conjunction with the management) so that the business survives for the benefit of the good workers. However, I also believe, that it is the responsibility of the management to help the union(s) in this task. Rather than confrontation there has to be co-operation. JawJaw not War War and all that.
Another problem that BRS suffered from was that when the industry was de-nationalised they were effectively left with the rump of the business. The only parts that were taken back into private control were the profitable operations. I’d like to say that the fact they remained in business for another 40 years was down to the management but it was due to various governments not having the bottle to deal with the problems. Whilst it is certainly true that the management didn’t see the need to make a profit this was also the attitude of governments (of both hues). Even when the decision to privatise the business was made the government still made an arse of it. As far as I can recall the buyout price was £4m - the value of the land that was owned by the NFC group companies was over £120m. It goes to show how poorly managed the business was that they managed to burn through this windfall within 10 years.
So, in conclusion, a nationalised transport industry could only work if there was no competition and ALL the management was dedicated to the project. Unfortunately that’s two things you would never have.
Dennis Javelin:
peggydeckboy:
Well written dennis,and yes as a ex BRS DRIVER 1969 1980 you are correct but that was what nationalization was about like all the other industries
we had in this country that all went to the wall, but so what why let one man make loads of money ,why not let everyone have a little slice of a easy good life… look now ,where is the profit, we are all the same, work ,earn money, live ,if everything was nationalized now would it be better than all the private firms having problems…I’m all for everyone getting a fair share of the pot but it has to work both ways. Why should someone who puts in a good days work get the same pay as someone who slacks off at every opportunity? A strong union is not there just to protect the weak. It also should accept the responsibility for weeding out the bad apples (in conjunction with the management) so that the business survives for the benefit of the good workers. However, I also believe, that it is the responsibility of the management to help the union(s) in this task. Rather than confrontation there has to be co-operation. JawJaw not War War and all that.
Another problem that BRS suffered from was that when the industry was de-nationalised they were effectively left with the rump of the business. The only parts that were taken back into private control were the profitable operations. I’d like to say that the fact they remained in business for another 40 years was down to the management but it was due to various governments not having the bottle to deal with the problems. Whilst it is certainly true that the management didn’t see the need to make a profit this was also the attitude of governments (of both hues). Even when the decision to privatise the business was made the government still made an arse of it. As far as I can recall the buyout price was £4m - the value of the land that was owned by the NFC group companies was over £120m. It goes to show how poorly managed the business was that they managed to burn through this windfall within 10 years.
So, in conclusion, a nationalised transport industry could only work if there was no competition and ALL the management was dedicated to the project. Unfortunately that’s two things you would never have.
Some shrewd observations there! I’d just like to take the opportunity to thank all those who have responded to my original post. The union / management balance was always, it seems to me, a simpler balancing act in the manufacturing industry than the transport one.
Gentlemen this debate [as such] would read as far as my comments are concerned as if i was back then a [red, commie, socialist,]to be honest further from the truth in actual fact in 1963 i was actually in commie china ,up the yangste river their you did see what a one state commie country looked like and no way would,you ,me want to live like they did,you never fogot it.
So as a driver later on i was no way WAS I a red,or agitator,or strong union man because [i knew] they ,the union reds,hot heads, had no idea what communism was really like however i belived in a way of work THAT we were all equal,come to work do your shift then either go to digs or home, start at 8am finish before 6pm DAY WORK OR NIGHTS THEY WERE THE SAME, no rush for meeting dead lines Trunking was in before all theses HUBSsame differance,it got there when you did so long as you did not take the ■■■■, loss of lorry earnings ,diesel,miles to the gallon ,nothing the way we worked equated to GREED IT WAS LIKE THE RAILWAY A WAY OF LIFE…AS THE YANKS SUPPOSEDLY SAY if it ant broke dont fixit.
If you were never within the BRS don’t knock it becuase you will never know,it was the best apprentice ship you could have…dbp
peggydeckboy:
Well written dennis,and yes as a ex BRS DRIVER 1969 1980 you are correct but that was what nationalization was about like all the other industries
we had in this country that all went to the wall, but so what why let one man make loads of money ,why not let everyone have a little slice of a easy good life… look now ,where is the profit, we are all the same, work ,earn money, live ,if everything was nationalized now would it be better than all the private firms having problems…
If the workers say let’s earn the maximum amount of return from the minimum possible amount of input that’s called militancy and unproductive laziness which will run the firm into the ground and it’s all their fault.
If you call it profit suddenly the same thing is good and the reason why the firm exists and it’s only right to run the firm into the ground in the interests of maximising those returns.
peggydeckboy:
Gentlemen this debate [as such] would read as far as my comments are concerned as if i was back then a [red, commie, socialist,]to be honest further from the truth in actual fact in 1963 i was actually in commie china ,up the yangste river their you did see what a one state commie country looked like and no way would,you ,me want to live like they did,you never fogot it.So as a driver later on i was no way WAS I a red,or agitator,or strong union man because [i knew] they ,the union reds,hot heads, had no idea what communism was really like however i belived in a way of work THAT we were all equal,come to work do your shift then either go to digs or home, start at 8am finish before 6pm DAY WORK OR NIGHTS THEY WERE THE SAME, no rush for meeting dead lines Trunking was in before all theses HUBSsame differance,it got there when you did so long as you did not take the ■■■■, loss of lorry earnings ,diesel,miles to the gallon ,nothing the way we worked equated to GREED IT WAS LIKE THE RAILWAY A WAY OF LIFE…AS THE YANKS SUPPOSEDLY SAY if it ant broke dont fixit.
If you were never within the BRS don’t knock it becuase you will never know,it was the best apprentice ship you could have…dbp
Like you I realised that Socialism was a steaming pile of manure early on.
But I also realised that workers’ solidarity isn’t the same thing as Communism.It was just there to stop employers using their workers’ wages as a race to the bottom tendering mechanism for getting work.
Also workers were just as justified in minimising their input for the maximum return as their bosses.Being employed doesn’t remove the right to ‘make a profit’.
Also if each worker does to much work that means less workers required and creates the worst of all worlds situation of an over supplied labour market putting downward pressure on wages.Which increases unemployement and lowers the tax take meaning higher taxes for those who are working.
While some of the strongest unions and highest wages were in the commy republic …of USA while Commy workers got totally shafted by their utopian regimes.
Remind us where all those highly paid western jobs went.Follow the money. 
Carryfast,yes I agree with your comments,however ihave never had the politicial basic grounding, or even taken any intrest in the deep thoughts of why this or that will happen if this or that happens,
when I look back to My BRS days,I did as I was told,not question anything and why would you want to older experanced men had helped set up the working conditions their politics were probly never questions (by who)and why would they ,do not forget the them and us class system was still in society I shipped out with men who had experanced the horror of war at sea ,and there view on bosses management would drip feed into our way of working practices and as they say (you never rocked the boat) exactly the same as on BRS this is the way it is …
look at John presscot miltant officer of the National union of sent to Oxford University to better himself,he was only one of thousands of union officers who had the same work ethic that was drip fed in to all most the majority of working men in the 1950s 1960s,1970,as i have said previously if you have never worked in a mass, nationalisd. industry whoever it is they will never get it as carryfast says follow the money,that’s something the workers did not have a lot of.
Docks,ship yards,railways ,coal mines, steel works,all nationalised works had the same type of work ethic,I soon came in to contact with that work ethic in1960 within the National union of seaman that was(ZB em)management ,it was the then way of life,take what you can have a easy life…how many drivers years ago died of streesed never heard of,overweight,idleness,lots of beer swilling,a driver’s right of passage.untill private haulage crept in ,profit,motoway systems were another killer of the
BRS depots.
to be honest I really do not give 2 monkeys what happens to transport I just ramble, I like thousands of others enjoyed BRS plus evenback then they had a pension scheme still paying out through DHL.
I think that BRS was OK from a drivers (or other staff) point of view, I know a couple of former drivers and they had all day to do what other firms did in half of one and were never pushed or hurried. One lad lived in Brighton and when on his way back from Scotch was told to phone in from Doncaster to see about return loads. Several times he was sent back ‘over the border’ again to collect from not far away from where he had tipped. Mind you, former employees have told me that one local haulage company was like that as well so not just common to BRS!
Now wether the hauliers, many who had built their fleets up from nothing and then had them taken away from them when BRS was formed, thought it a good thing or not I have no idea but I can imagine that some protested but for others on their ‘uppers’ and running a load of crap it may well have done them a favour? 
Long before my time though, and I’m guessing that it was before most lads on here’s time as well. Would a new ‘Nationlised’ fleet obtain their vehicles in a similar way?
Pete.
windrush:
Now wether the hauliers, many who had built their fleets up from nothing and then had them taken away from them when BRS was formed, thought it a good thing or not I have no idea but I can imagine that some protested but for others on their ‘uppers’ and running a load of crap it may well have done them a favour?Pete.
Realistically the intention was an experiment in Communist style economics.The government wanted collective politburo control of the whole operation.
When Nationalisation should just mean 0% interest state funded finance and bail outs to cover the bad times or replacement and depreciation costs as and when required.In a protected marketplace road transport friendly environment which also stops race to the bottom competitive practices so minimum rates, with realistic corporate taxation then put on the profits to fund it.
So what did the government do let’s limit productivety with stupid vehicle dimensions and gross weight limits.With punitive road fuel taxation and allow race to the bottom competitive practices and leave it subject to the mercies of the zb bankers for its investment requirements.That’ll fix it.
Well the 26mph would be about right now for the smart motorways (pre lockdown of course!) I suppose they could ressurect the BRS name but a more politically correct “Brexit Road Services” would fit nicer. Can someone get me a form please? I’m ok for Monday - Friday (but not every Friday) Ta.