Verbal diorreah (?) is the word for it !! 
Bewick.
Bewick:
Verbal diorreah (?) is the word for it !!
Thas spelt it wrong but we know what tha means Dennis. 
[zb]
anorak:
Whatever.
Ha Ha 
ramone:
NZ Jamie how very dare you try to explain the road conditions of NZ and the buying habits of NZ hauliers , you only live there for God sake .You might well have spoken to old drivers who actually drove the vehicles this thread posed the question about but the answers were all wrong that they gave you.The British vehicles were rubbish those old drivers were either backward thinking or just plain stupid because everyone knows they should have been driving conventional yank motors at the time irrespective of the narrow roads they were driving on.
So Stokes was right after all the ERGO was the way to go and from that point on no American based trucks both conventional and cab over were ever sold in NZ at the time or since and Leyland trucks still have the market share in that market to prove it.While the American manufacturers can only look on thinking what might have been there if only it had been them that had made the ERGO instead of Leyland Group.Not forgetting all those present day drivers there who are thinking if only they could have an old ERGO instead of having to put up with a KW. 
Re Brady Ergos Dennis, I think your right, the first ergo was a badger, BEO 665 C, the last LAD was a beaver, BEO 212 C (which survived until 1985 with the help of a length of rope to keep the corroded roof on!) Other egos included DEO 353D and DEO 600D, EEO 822F. Tragic that I can do this off the top of my head!
Tragic, No way you are brilliant my man , Keep the old regs coming, Its these new bloody regs that are tragic to say the least, , Regards Larry.
Carryfast:
ramone:
NZ Jamie how very dare you try to explain the road conditions of NZ and the buying habits of NZ hauliers , you only live there for God sake .You might well have spoken to old drivers who actually drove the vehicles this thread posed the question about but the answers were all wrong that they gave you.The British vehicles were rubbish those old drivers were either backward thinking or just plain stupid because everyone knows they should have been driving conventional yank motors at the time irrespective of the narrow roads they were driving on.So Stokes was right after all the ERGO was the way to go and from that point on no American based trucks both conventional and cab over were ever sold in NZ at the time or since and Leyland trucks still have the market share in that market to prove it.While the American manufacturers can only look on thinking what might have been there if only it had been them that had made the ERGO instead of Leyland Group.
Stokes was a man with a vendetta (is that how you spell it Chris) and a motive to close AEC as soon as possible.Instead he chose a slow cruel death by strangling the life out of it .I dont think AEC were ever going to produce the yank looking cab, it was a mock up to test the Marathon .Ive read reports from 1 of the test drivers from Southall who regularily drove it at 40 tons along the M4 in the early 70s .He gave it a glowing report with storming performance but lack of investment meant the cab (ergo marathon) or the rest of the vehicle never fulfilled its potential,just like the V8 which by this time was ready for relaunch but blocked and much the same could be said of the later turbo AV505 which never saw the light of day
gardner180:
Re Brady Ergos Dennis, I think your right, the first ergo was a badger, BEO 665 C, the last LAD was a beaver, BEO 212 C (which survived until 1985 with the help of a length of rope to keep the corroded roof on!) Other egos included DEO 353D and DEO 600D, EEO 822F. Tragic that I can do this off the top of my head!
Opened a right can of worms here Eh!,I’ve just dug my “Bradys spotters list” out ( courtesy of Chris Swin!) and it lists 665C as a Beaver.however there are two Badgers listed as first reg.I–12–65 and they are BEO852C and BEO923C.So whats what 180LXB?,we’ll have Frankie Boy on next putting us all straight ! 
Cheers Dennis.
This family firm ran Ergo cabbed Leylands from the 1960’s up until they changed to the Constructor cabs and there is no way they would have been in this yard if they didn’t rate them.
ramone:
Carryfast:
ramone:
NZ Jamie how very dare you try to explain the road conditions of NZ and the buying habits of NZ hauliers , you only live there for God sake .You might well have spoken to old drivers who actually drove the vehicles this thread posed the question about but the answers were all wrong that they gave you.The British vehicles were rubbish those old drivers were either backward thinking or just plain stupid because everyone knows they should have been driving conventional yank motors at the time irrespective of the narrow roads they were driving on.So Stokes was right after all the ERGO was the way to go and from that point on no American based trucks both conventional and cab over were ever sold in NZ at the time or since and Leyland trucks still have the market share in that market to prove it.While the American manufacturers can only look on thinking what might have been there if only it had been them that had made the ERGO instead of Leyland Group.
Stokes was a man with a vendetta (is that how you spell it Chris) and a motive to close AEC as soon as possible.Instead he chose a slow cruel death by strangling the life out of it .I dont think AEC were ever going to produce the yank looking cab, it was a mock up to test the Marathon .I
ve read reports from 1 of the test drivers from Southall who regularily drove it at 40 tons along the M4 in the early70s .He gave it a glowing report with storming performance but lack of investment meant the cab (ergo marathon) or the rest of the vehicle never fulfilled its potential,just like the V8 which by this time was ready for relaunch but blocked and much the same could be said of the later turbo AV505 which never saw the light of day
It’s resonable for even Stevie Wonder to assume that the ‘yank cab’ had no connection whatsoever to either the ERGO or what ‘eventually’ became the Marathon.It’s obviously based on a cab over Pete. 
It’s also resonable to assume that AEC’s engineers actually preferred to use that design to the ERGO or what eventually actually became the Marathon or they wouldn’t have bothered with all the trouble of making it.
It’s also reaonable to assume that there would have been a ( big ) ‘argument’ between those AEC engineers and Leyland’s management when they were ordered to get rid of the idea in favour of keeping the ERGO and introducing the Marathon.Which just leaves the question are you and kr and zb etc etc saying that keeping the ERGO and introducing the Marathon as it actually was in that case rather than going for the 3VGT design was the correct decision or not 
. If so where’s the big difference between that idea and what Stokes actually did. 
The difference is that,contrary to your view concerning any so called bs ‘vendetta’,Stokes would probably have actually been in agreement with those AEC engineers as to which was the best option but his hands were tied by those above him (bean counters ) and the constraints imposed by the British domestic market conditions.Which just leaves the question as to why AEC’s management didn’t stick to their guns as Scammell’s obviously did in their dealings with Leyland’s management.
gardner180:
Re Brady Ergos Dennis, I think your right, the first ergo was a badger, BEO 665 C, the last LAD was a beaver, BEO 212 C (which survived until 1985 with the help of a length of rope to keep the corroded roof on!) Other egos included DEO 353D and DEO 600D, EEO 822F. Tragic that I can do this off the top of my head!
Hi Dennis, gardner180, et al,
M.E. Saunders & Sons from Sparkbridge , Ulverston, bought one of the first Ergomatic-cabbed Leylands.
It was a 0.600 engined Retriever 6 wheeler , reg. no. RTD 123 C, and was used mainly on livestock haulage.
Leyland Motors used photographs of RTD in some of their publicity magazines.
Another early Ergo-cabbed Leyland was a Beaver , reg. no. STB 550 C . This Beaver was photographed alongside
2 L.A.D. Leylands belonging to T. Brady & Sons at the Mayfield Cafe , Garstang. Again , it was a Leyland Motorspublicity photograph. A haulier in the Manchester was the first owner ofSTB`, and it was later restored in the livery of Reids Transport.
Sadly, it was destroyed by fire a few years ago.
I hope this information is of help to what is now becoming a trans-world debate.
Incidently, there is a photograph of a 1966 Ergo-cabbed Albion Super Clydesdale on the Yorkshire Livestock Haulage Companies` thread. DEC 281 D was a 0.400 engined Albion , bought by Tommy Staveley of Ingleton, North Yorkshire.
Cheers, cattle wagon man.
,
I will have to concede to your list Dennis, I was only 11 when Don Pugh showed me round the yard and workshop, so the reg nos are what I recall from then. I will offer that BEO 665 C was a badger, Pat Kennetts world trucks - leyland book has a pic of it in with the caption " the new ergomatic cabbed badger carried more payload than most under the new C&U regulations" Bill Glassey told me it was driven by a bloke they called “the woodman” from Backbarrow. Interestingly JEO 756 ( survived to 1979) was visually a badger, but was in reality a beaver, the first cab being written off when a road collapsed into a river at a South Wales steel plant. The badger cab was a replacement, Bill told me that the insurance wouldn’t pay for a new bumper so it had a homemade job out of angle iron, looked mean - better than the leyland curvey original to me.
Evening Gentlemen, now what I know about V8 AECs can be written on the head of a pin, but I remember what a stormer the V8 Mandator operated by Chris Foster , (Fosters of Dudley), actually was. It was maintained , as was the entire fleet, by one of the best lorry mechanics that I have known, the late Johnny Yapp. And was resplendent in its red black and gold livery.
I do not know the exact modifications that he had carried out to the actual engine, but I remember him telling me that oil changes were at 3000miles max. They had very few reliability problems, and she ran alongside 760 Mandators on steel, and those of you who know the Black Country and South Wales know what hard territory it is for a lorry.
Just an aside for dear Carryfast, re petrol engines in artics…the REO cabover, (for slim drivers), I have just put the photograph back into the file, but was surprised to see the choke control sticking up on the plate that holds the gear lever mounting and the image clearly shows a inline petrol engine under the cab!!
Dennis, take heart, I could not spell the word either…but my spelling in any language is terrible,…but his posts are entertaining, are they not?
Do a full shift in either a contemporary KW, or any other US cabover, or an Ergo, we know which one would give you piles, and deafness earlier , and it would not be the cab produced in Wellington,(UK Carryfast, lest you imagine Leyland cabs came from NZ)
Cheerio for now.
Here is a model I made of M.E. Saunders & Sons` Leyland Retriever, RTD 123 C.
Cheers, cattle wagon man.
gardner180:
I will have to concede to your list Dennis, I was only 11 when Don Pugh showed me round the yard and workshop, so the reg nos are what I recall from then. I will offer that BEO 665 C was a badger, Pat Kennetts world trucks - leyland book has a pic of it in with the caption " the new ergomatic cabbed badger carried more payload than most under the new C&U regulations" Bill Glassey told me it was driven by a bloke they called “the woodman” from Backbarrow. Interestingly JEO 756 ( survived to 1979) was visually a badger, but was in reality a beaver, the first cab being written off when a road collapsed into a river at a South Wales steel plant. The badger cab was a replacement, Bill told me that the insurance wouldn’t pay for a new bumper so it had a homemade job out of angle iron, looked mean - better than the leyland curvey original to me.
I’m sorry I should have added that the driver of the first Ergo Badger at Bradys was indeed Joe"The Woodman" Saunders and boy did he do some “flying” about with that motor,I was sat in the passenger seat of JEO 192 at the time,Octopus and trailer driven by the great Eric Poss,and he used to call The Woodman a ■■■■■■■ idiot for the chasing about he did as all the Brady drivers had to work hard but The Woodman was mental!!,but he’d got his hands on the first state of the art tilt cab and Jakie made sure he got his pound of flesh out of him ! 
Cheers Dennis.
cattle wagon man:
Here is a model I made of M.E. Saunders & Sons` Leyland Retriever, RTD 123 C.Cheers, cattle wagon man.
They probably got this Retreiver from Hudsons via Tony Bingley CWM,Bradys were Leyland dealers in their own right so could cut out the middle man so to speak! Cheers Dennis.
By the way Dennis I would love to see the “Brady spotters list” on here as I never had a full list. I do recall 852C now you mention it. I was only 11 in 1977, but brady’s yard was fascinating for me then, with everything for pre motorway beavers like Jeo756 Thro Atkis ( my favourites were 8LXB SEO 479 and 629M) right up to the latest Scania 111s, the noise of which as they pulled away “fully” loaded on night trunk from the strawberry lights will stay with me forever. I always thought of the late 70s as being the peak of the uk haulage industry, quite a few entries on this site seem to support that.
gardner180:
By the way Dennis I would love to see the “Brady spotters list” on here as I never had a full list. I do recall 852C now you mention it. I was only 11 in 1977, but brady’s yard was fascinating for me then, with everything for pre motorway beavers like Jeo756 Thro Atkis ( my favourites were 8LXB SEO 479 and 629M) right up to the latest Scania 111s, the noise of which as they pulled away “fully” loaded on night trunk from the strawberry lights will stay with me forever. I always thought of the late 70s as being the peak of the uk haulage industry, quite a few entries on this site seem to support that.
The list is all hand written by Chris Swindlehurst from Milnthorpe who also has exstensive detail of the Bewick fleet,I can’t put it on the site but if you have any questions I’ll be glad to have a look for you.The list runs up the mid 70’s when Barrow Borough became part of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ Dennis.
gingerfold:
Just picking up on various points mentioned in these excellent, knowlegeable, and well informed posts in this interesting thread.Yes, Albion Ergo cabbed models tended to be fixed cab versions, and there was also a de-rated Leyland Comet version with a fixed cab listed in the catalogues, but I don’t know if any of these were actually built or sold.
One quirk of the cab spec was that three types of seat could be ordered, basic (thin cushion and cheapest), standard (thicker cushion), and luxury (thickest cushion).
Scammell did enjoy far more autonomy than any other Leyland subsidiary, at least until the early 1970s. When Leyland purchased Scammell in the early 1950s the latter was very much a niche market manufacturer with its own distinctive models and engineering ideas. In those years the senior Leyland management was a completely different kettle of fish to the later Stokes led era of the 1960s. They realised that Scammell had its own unique products and markets and left well alone, except from fitting Leyland engines as options. Also Scammell never competed in the high volume markets for passenger and goods vehicles sales that Leyland and AEC did. Scammell’s annual chassis output numbered in the low hundreds in the 1950’s and '60s compared with the 4,000 or so of AEC and the 5,000 or so of Leyland. Even the latter figures are tiny by comparison with today’s numbers produced by the likes of DAF and Volvo, but it was so much different half a century ago.
I think this one is a fixed cab - taken at Donington in 2008
Bewick:
cattle wagon man:
Here is a model I made of M.E. Saunders & Sons` Leyland Retriever, RTD 123 C.Cheers, cattle wagon man.
They probably got this Retreiver from Hudsons via Tony Bingley CWM,Bradys were Leyland dealers in their own right so could cut out the middle man so to speak! Cheers Dennis.
I rather think that back in 1965 , that Tony Bingley was a mechanic at Hudsons, and he graduated to being a Salesman a couple of years later. George Mills , alongside Raymond Bowman, was Hudsons Salesman during part of the 1960`s,
prior to leaving to work directly for Leyland Motors around 1966/7.
Hell,…I was only in my early teens then, Dennis !!
Cheers, cattle wagon man.