BEST 'ERGO' ?

[carryfast]

ramone:

Carryfast:

ramone:
How the hell ,from a thread titled Best Ergo? do we get onto the subject of American cabs and no doubt the V8 Detroit .In `64 when the ergo was launched it was streets ahead of anything in Britain with its large 1 piece screen ,a tilting cab ,quieter believe it or not than anything in its class available ,a heater,a dashboard binnacle and controls at your fingertips…Yes 10 years on they were outdated so the high datum cab was fitted along with cheap brown plastic panels and the same dash binnacle.So not really any improvements,like have said before would it have been possible to lower the marathon cab to a sensible level as the interior was much better.As for the best ergo i would say the AEC version with full top grille and the triangle in the middle looked the best.The best model in my opinion would have been the Mandator with a 9 speed Fuller or a 13 speed in Oz or NZ.I wonder if Carryfast is aware that some AECs were retro fitted with Detroits when the AV760s finally wore out in the Southern Hemisphere

Strange how if it was so good that it failed against it’s foreign competition.The relevance of American design is that AEC engineers were obviously looking to that solution to the problem at the time in question knowing that the ERGO wasn’t up to the job.

It’s no surprise to me that anyone in the colonial markets,where they knew what they were doing,would have eventually replaced AEC motors with Detroits which just reinforces my arguments.But no doubt those wagons were probably replaced with one of the real deal US products not British in the longer term.

The reason it failed (IF IT ACTUALLY DID??) was that it was never improved and i would say it was quite successful in the early years and was in production for 16 years in 1 form or another .Its been mentioned on here that the design was flawed but was still put into production without rectification.It wasnt Leyland designed but outsourced so who took the blame? Not the only time Leyland have rushed a design through without thorough testing (V8). Its good to see that the europeans took the American stance and produced similar cab designs to their US counterparts NOT.Theres many Volvo,Scania and Mercedes running around OZ and NZ i wonder why the Aussies still buy euro motors when those wonderfull yanks are available

Or to put it another way it’s the US based designs that stood the test of time in being able to withstand the Euro and Scandinavian opposition in those markets unlike the Brit products both here and there ( maybe with the exception of those Brit products with loads of American influence like the last of the Foden line in those colonial markets ).

Although as I’ve said that’s not fault of British engineering standards and it’s management.The fact is the ERGO was just another flawed failure because of it’s origins in a place where the combination of austerity thinking and over regulation in it’s domestic market resulted in it’s in built obsolesence from day 1.

[kr79]

Carryfast:

kr79:
At the end of the day the bulk of the British builders sales were in the UK and the ergo was ideal for the conditions at the time.
Someone said sleeper cabs were illegal and if we look at length limits tractors of the period were very short so they could couple to maximum length trailers.
Perhaps British legislation held things back in that respect.

Now you’re talking just like Stokes etc in concentrating on the domestic market who nmm etc seem to think was to blame for it all. While also agreeing with my ideas that it wasn’t his fault that he was just lumbered with a backward thinking domestic market based on austerity and over regulation which,as I’ve said previously,is what all the uk manufacturers,not just the Leyland group,had to base their designs on.Whereas I’m talking from the point of view of the engineers not the bean counters and the suits.Which,as I’ve said,explains why the Euro and Scandinavian competition got ahead of us.

The trucks the swedes were producing at the end of the ergo cabbed trucks life were very different to the ones when the ergo was new.
We saw the pictures of the AEC prototype which does look American and we can guess this is what become the marathon which was at best a parts bin lash up. The AEC v8 failed largely because it was unreliable in service and a lot has been blamed on it been launched to early. The leyland fixed head engine the same.
By the time leyland got its act together with the t45 range the damage had been done. It had given up on the v8 and reworked the 680 and av760 which only realy had a certain amount of scope left and had to go down the outsourced engine route.
When the roadtrain was launched the sleeper wasn’t avalible for a year and sleeper was standard fare by then.
If you had ever driven an American truck you would no other than having more space in the yank it is quite similar to an ergo cab truck. With the draughts rattles noise and the mirrors been unusable in the rain as the wipers cover them in spray and that’s the new ones.

[kr79]

Anyway as for best ergo for me it has to be an AEC mammoth major.

[saviem]

Evening Gentlemen, …a day on the ploughing, (rejoyce, at last)!! and this thread is getting along well. May I comment on some posts?

Hello Carryfast, no sorry to disapoint you, not “penny pinching Guvnors”, KWs marketing for the 60s, and 70s, had as its main theme, “a lb saved is a $ made”, " we build light"! And not just KW, REOs sales pitch for 1962 was concentrating on a 13ft wb 4x2 tractor, with a 48in bbc, sleeper, containing a 30in bed!!! That gives an 18in envelope for the driver!! Oh and REO also offered a day version 28in bbc!!! I think that the “Ergo” wins hands down in the comfort stakes.

VALKYRIE, well researched as usual. No I do not think that is Pat on your image, (but he would have been flattered to have been thought so tall and slim)!!!.

The AEC V8, that cab fascinates me. Perhaps gingerfold would have more to reveal? Could it be the design brief that AEC gave to Sankey to refine, then suddenly withdrew? ( As my earlier post relating to my conversation with the retired ex Sankey neighbour). But to me, it shows a remarkable similarity to the design manufactured by Weldon, of Fort Worth, and fitted to 1960/70s “Rare breed from Texas” Marmons. The only physical difference being the quarter light depth, and of course the UK type bumper and lights. Now of course AEC were strong in Latin America… Any one have any knowlege on this cab?

Nice picture of a Pete 352/362 model…perhaps the most unweildly US design to ever drive in Europe. I well remember importing a couple, one a real mobile coffin, 110in sleeper. The lack of vision, coupled to awfull manouverability, (28in from centreline of the front axle to the leading edge of the front bumper), and very short Reyco springs, giving a ride like a roller coaster, made no easy task of selling the things.

Anorak, when I was working in the US Glider kits were selling well. The idea that you could update your existing vehicle, (mainly to a really individual specification), for about 60/70% of the cost of a new vehicle. There were also a number of fiscal advantages, tax allowances, write downs,and registration dates. Glider kits could be obtained to various specifications and prices, which when you were buying “blind” from this side of the Atlantic, made sight of the vehicle title document… vital!!!

KR79, has underlined the vital point regarding specification, ALL manufacturers have to build to the paramaters set down by legislation, otherwise their product is illegal for use in the UK. Most countries enforced these rules with great energy …but in the UK, although home products broadly met legislative criteria, many of the imports did not! And sad to say, as ever, our authorities did not enforce as tightly as did other European countries, giving vehicles built to a more “generous” ligislative specification an unfair competitive advantage…

The “Ergomatic design”, in its day superb, ahead of the game by a long, long way! My personal favourite…well in the days before the family left the ever downward spiral that is Road Transport, and I was proudly selling a “premium” lorry Atkinson, I used to augment my modest income by driving at weekends for them. My steed , a single drive AEC 505 Marshall. And together we did many many miles, what a wonderful lorry, and so comfortable, and I remember her as quiet to drive…(at least after “hooligan” ■■■■■■■ 205 Atkinsons!!

NMM, sums it up perfectly, it was the best cab available!!

Cheerio for now.

[carryfast]

kr79:

Carryfast:

kr79:
At the end of the day the bulk of the British builders sales were in the UK and the ergo was ideal for the conditions at the time.
Someone said sleeper cabs were illegal and if we look at length limits tractors of the period were very short so they could couple to maximum length trailers.
Perhaps British legislation held things back in that respect.

Now you’re talking just like Stokes etc in concentrating on the domestic market who nmm etc seem to think was to blame for it all. While also agreeing with my ideas that it wasn’t his fault that he was just lumbered with a backward thinking domestic market based on austerity and over regulation which,as I’ve said previously,is what all the uk manufacturers,not just the Leyland group,had to base their designs on.Whereas I’m talking from the point of view of the engineers not the bean counters and the suits.Which,as I’ve said,explains why the Euro and Scandinavian competition got ahead of us.

The trucks the swedes were producing at the end of the ergo cabbed trucks life were very different to the ones when the ergo was new.
We saw the pictures of the AEC prototype which does look American and we can guess this is what become the marathon which was at best a parts bin lash up. The AEC v8 failed largely because it was unreliable in service and a lot has been blamed on it been launched to early. The leyland fixed head engine the same.
By the time leyland got its act together with the t45 range the damage had been done.

Blimey even Stevie Wonder could see that there’s absolutely no connection whatsoever between an AEC that’s obviously based on a cab over Pete compared to a Marathon let alone an ERGO.Which is obviously what happened after those AEC engineers had been brought down to earth with typical British austerity thinking imposed by the suits and bankers in view of typical Brit domestic market conditions as opposed to those in the colonies.

The T45 was just another last gasp attempt ( more like another of those,as you say,cheap parts bins lash ups to clear all the outstanding debts with a few sales ) before shutting up shop and leaving DAF to get on with it.

As for the AEC/Pete that never was it’s no surprise that,like everything else at the time which we could afford to develop here,it probably would have been better with a Detroit or CAT V8 under the cab than the AEC V8 lump,which just left the question of which 6 cylinder options to put in it.Which obviously would have come down to the choice of either something like what became the TL12 or a ■■■■■■■ or maybe CAT 3406.It’s my bet that the TL12 would ( rightly ) have been at the bottom of most customers shopping list in that case although in all cases it would have been a better wagon than any of the ERGO variants.

[carryfast]

Saviem:
Evening Gentlemen, …a day on the ploughing, (rejoyce, at last)!! and this thread is getting along well. May I comment on some posts?

Hello Carryfast, no sorry to disapoint you, not “penny pinching Guvnors”, KWs marketing for the 60s, and 70s, had as its main theme, “a lb saved is a $ made”, " we build light"! And not just KW, REOs sales pitch for 1962 was concentrating on a 13ft wb 4x2 tractor, with a 48in bbc, sleeper, containing a 30in bed!!! That gives an 18in envelope for the driver!! Oh and REO also offered a day version 28in bbc!!! I think that the “Ergo” wins hands down in the comfort stakes.

Nice picture of a Pete 352/362 model…perhaps the most unweildly US design to ever drive in Europe. I well remember importing a couple, one a real mobile coffin, 110in sleeper. The lack of vision, coupled to awfull manouverability, (28in from centreline of the front axle to the leading edge of the front bumper), and very short Reyco springs, giving a ride like a roller coaster, made no easy task of selling the things.

As I remember it most of the best US manufacturers like KW etc would build whatever the customer asked them to build within legal requirements in it’s place of registration of course.

I think what I’m describing and as shown in the pic posted is a totally Brit designed and built AEC on an AEC chassis just ‘based on’ US type cab ‘design’ ‘ideas’ and US engine and transmission componentry with plenty of Brit input as opposed to an AEC assembled cab over Pete.In which case you can bet that there’d have been enough room for the driver and decent suspension seats as a standard no delete fitment.The question is who would have bought the thing in the domestic market where most of AEC’s sales were.

[zb_anorak]

Thought I would brighten up the thread with some phots, purloined from the internet over the years:

It seems that, although the Ergo seemed to be designed exclusively for the illegal-sleeper GB market, there was enough demand for Leylands in Europe to justify the purchase a supplementary set of tools, to make this:

According to my recollection of the things I have read, the sleeper version was available from 1965, about a year after the original launch.

Monsieur Saviem- is there any chance of your neighbour being persuaded to post on this forum? If he was working in the industry in the day, his input would be invaluable.

[kr79]

I think stevie wonder would notice the marathon cab was based on the ergo cab.
And the t45 was a bit more than a parts bin lash up.

[dave_the_renegade]

Carryfast:

Saviem:
Evening Gentlemen, …a day on the ploughing, (rejoyce, at last)!! and this thread is getting along well. May I comment on some posts?

Hello Carryfast, no sorry to disapoint you, not “penny pinching Guvnors”, KWs marketing for the 60s, and 70s, had as its main theme, “a lb saved is a $ made”, " we build light"! And not just KW, REOs sales pitch for 1962 was concentrating on a 13ft wb 4x2 tractor, with a 48in bbc, sleeper, containing a 30in bed!!! That gives an 18in envelope for the driver!! Oh and REO also offered a day version 28in bbc!!! I think that the “Ergo” wins hands down in the comfort stakes.

Nice picture of a Pete 352/362 model…perhaps the most unweildly US design to ever drive in Europe. I well remember importing a couple, one a real mobile coffin, 110in sleeper. The lack of vision, coupled to awfull manouverability, (28in from centreline of the front axle to the leading edge of the front bumper), and very short Reyco springs, giving a ride like a roller coaster, made no easy task of selling the things.

As I remember it most of the best US manufacturers like KW etc would build whatever the customer asked them to build within legal requirements in it’s place of registration of course.

I think what I’m describing and as shown in the pic posted is a totally Brit designed and built AEC on an AEC chassis just ‘based on’ US type cab ‘design’ ‘ideas’ and US engine and transmission componentry with plenty of Brit input as opposed to an AEC assembled cab over Pete.In which case you can bet that there’d have been enough room for the driver and decent suspension seats as a standard no delete fitment.The question is who would have bought the thing in the domestic market where most of AEC’s sales were.

This country by the best stretch of imagination is not suited to American built normal control trucks Geoff.We have a lot of small market towns and many narrow roads which the long nosed American motors just would not be able to negotiate.
Motorway work and continental work maybe,but I don’t think they could compete with the European motors.
Cheers Dave.

[carryfast]

Dave the Renegade:

Carryfast:

Saviem:
Evening Gentlemen, …a day on the ploughing, (rejoyce, at last)!! and this thread is getting along well. May I comment on some posts?

Hello Carryfast, no sorry to disapoint you, not “penny pinching Guvnors”, KWs marketing for the 60s, and 70s, had as its main theme, “a lb saved is a $ made”, " we build light"! And not just KW, REOs sales pitch for 1962 was concentrating on a 13ft wb 4x2 tractor, with a 48in bbc, sleeper, containing a 30in bed!!! That gives an 18in envelope for the driver!! Oh and REO also offered a day version 28in bbc!!! I think that the “Ergo” wins hands down in the comfort stakes.

Nice picture of a Pete 352/362 model…perhaps the most unweildly US design to ever drive in Europe. I well remember importing a couple, one a real mobile coffin, 110in sleeper. The lack of vision, coupled to awfull manouverability, (28in from centreline of the front axle to the leading edge of the front bumper), and very short Reyco springs, giving a ride like a roller coaster, made no easy task of selling the things.

As I remember it most of the best US manufacturers like KW etc would build whatever the customer asked them to build within legal requirements in it’s place of registration of course.

I think what I’m describing and as shown in the pic posted is a totally Brit designed and built AEC on an AEC chassis just ‘based on’ US type cab ‘design’ ‘ideas’ and US engine and transmission componentry with plenty of Brit input as opposed to an AEC assembled cab over Pete.In which case you can bet that there’d have been enough room for the driver and decent suspension seats as a standard no delete fitment.The question is who would have bought the thing in the domestic market where most of AEC’s sales were.

This country by the best stretch of imagination is not suited to American built normal control trucks Geoff.We have a lot of small market towns and many narrow roads which the long nosed American motors just would not be able to negotiate.
Motorway work and continental work maybe,but I don’t think they could compete with the European motors.
Cheers Dave.

In this case I was referring to something like this Dave either 4x2 or 6x4 not a conventional.

flickr.com/photos/blackcount … 369092612/

[lilladan]

No ergo sold till 1965 sleeper from start

[carryfast]

kr79:
I think stevie wonder would notice the marathon cab was based on the ergo cab.
And the t45 was a bit more than a parts bin lash up.

There’s no connection between the cab design which I was referring to and the ERGO and/or the Marathon.

As for the T45 maybe it was a bit harsh to say that it was a parts bin lash up when just cheap lash up would do.

[stanfield]

[zb_anorak]

Lilladan:
No ergo sold till 1965 sleeper from start

GB had Ergos from '64. It is shown in the CM archives. The will be photos of them, somewhere on the web, of Ergos on “B” plates- 1964. I have a vague recollection that its original launch/showing was in 1963- other may correct me on this. Maybe the European launch was delayed until the availability of the sleeper version, in 1965?

I have just found this 1965(?) Leyland advert, showing the luxuries available- neck massage anyone?

[kr79]

Carryfast:

kr79:
I think stevie wonder would notice the marathon cab was based on the ergo cab.
And the t45 was a bit more than a parts bin lash up.

There’s no connection between the cab design which I was referring to and the ERGO and/or the Marathon.

As for the T45 maybe it was a bit harsh to say that it was a parts bin lash up when just cheap lash up would do.

I think the t45 range wasn’t cheap.
That prototype was from the late 60s the marathon was launched in the early 70s after I’m guessing leyland pulled the plug on the path the prototype was going.
So we can see AEC was going with a design that could compete with scania and Volvo.
If AEC had launched a truck with a cab along them lines with either an updated av760 or there v8 once sorted. People would have bought them as AEC had a good reputation.
People can only buy what is avalible to them at the end of the day.

[gingerfold]

Time Line Clarification:

1964 Commercial Vehicle Motor Show launch of Ergo cabbed range by Leyland Group vehicles with Leyland, AEC and Albion models on display fitted with Ergo cabs. It was tradition then to use the autumn CVM to showcase new models that would be available the following year, that is 1965.

Similarly the 1964 Construction and Use Regulations which was very far-reaching in terms of new legislation they contained went through Parliament in 1964 but did not go onto the statute books until 1965, that is when the new legislation became law and could be implemented.

Therefore the first Ergo cabbed models, which were all designed to comply with the 1964 C & U Regs., irrespective of whether they were Leyland, AEC, or Albion, did not enter commercial service until 1965 on ‘C’ registration plates, and there weren’t very many of them. A few Leyland Beavers on ‘C’ plates, a few AEC Mercury’s and Mandators on ‘C’ plates and it was not until 1966 (‘D’ plates) that the complete Ergo cabbed ranges became available in quantity.

Also to clarify the Michellotti styling. They did not specify the actual construction of the cab, that was done by Leyland engineers. The stylists arranged its interior layout and external appearance.

And yes, Saviem, the walk-through AEC V8 Mandator version was light years ahead of anything else available at the time. IF ONLY…;…

[newmercman]

Anorak, can’t say why the Glider was popular in the mists of time, but I can tell you why they are becoming very sought after in the present. To the point where a lot of dealers sell them as a complete truck and there are even companies that ‘manufacture’ fully built glide kits. Two reasons and the first one is a bonus, no FET (Federal Excise Tax) on a newly purchased fully assembled glider kit, far more important than that is the fact that you can put any engine you like in one, so 100% of assembled gliders come with a pre emission (no EGR) engine, the Detroit 60 series DDEC3 being the favourite for general use, if you want something for heavier duty they usually have the CAT C15 6NZ and in smaller numbers the N14 ■■■■■■■■

A new built up Glider will set you back almost the same as a new truck, but you will get better fuel economy and better reliability than you could dream of from a new EGR, DPF, SCR equipped engine

Now, back to the Ergomatic cab, when it was launched it was the best cab on a British lorry, when it was discontinued it wasn’t, simple really, the Leatherhead Loony will now attempt to prove me wrong I’m sure, but we all know who’s right don’t we

[newmercman]

Saviem:
KR79, has underlined the vital point regarding specification, ALL manufacturers have to build to the paramaters set down by legislation, otherwise their product is illegal for use in the UK. Most countries enforced these rules with great energy …but in the UK, although home products broadly met legislative criteria, many of the imports did not! And sad to say, as ever, our authorities did not enforce as tightly as did other European countries, giving vehicles built to a more “generous” ligislative specification an unfair competitive advantage…

Quite true, how many imports could legally couple to a 40’ trailer Not one of the sleeper cabbed models, that’s for sure

[kr79]

Yeah but smokey and the bandit wouldn’t have been as good if they had been running a leyland buffalo full of double diamond between stoke and dagenham.

[newmercman]

kr79:
Yeah but smokey and the bandit wouldn’t have been as good if they had been running a leyland buffalo full of double diamond between stoke and dagenham.