BEST 'ERGO' ?

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:
You have not read kr79’s post properly, have you? It says that the profits were low due to bad workmanship. The money was not there even if the workers deserved it, which they did not, for obvious reasons. The general theme is that, as a group, they were lazy, greedy, useless bums (with apologies to any competent members of the manufacturing industry whose companies were successful in the 1960s and '70s).

As I read it it said the profits were cut by warranty claims.It obviously didn’t provide a detailed breakdown of the actual causes of the failures which led to the warranty claims.But you can bet that fair few of those warranty claims would have been for blown up Triumph Stag V8’s unlike Mercedes 450 V8’s.No not lazy,greedy,useless,bums many of who had shortly before that helped to win a world war.Just like the Triumph Stag V8 more like compromised design and underdevelopment caused by austerity thinking in the uk automotive manufacturing industry and buyers looking for something for nothing.Just like their employers who were paying them peanuts in real terms as the real value of the wages they were being paid fell.Which is why those Triumph designers weren’t given a blank cheque to produce a motor which could compete with that Merc and it’s also why Leyland Group trucks only had trucks like the ERGO in it’s armoury going into the 1970’s to compete with the assorted foreign competition ranged against it.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
You have not read kr79’s post properly, have you? It says that the profits were low due to bad workmanship. The money was not there even if the workers deserved it, which they did not, for obvious reasons. The general theme is that, as a group, they were lazy, greedy, useless bums (with apologies to any competent members of the manufacturing industry whose companies were successful in the 1960s and '70s).

As I read it it said the profits were cut by warranty claims.It obviously didn’t provide a detailed breakdown of the actual causes of the failures which led to the warranty claims.But you can bet that fair few of those warranty claims would have been for blown up Triumph Stag V8’s unlike Mercedes 450 V8’s.No not lazy,greedy,useless,bums many of who had shortly before that helped to win a world war.Just like the Triumph Stag V8 more like compromised design and underdevelopment caused by austerity thinking in the uk automotive manufacturing industry and buyers looking for something for nothing.Just like their employers who were paying them peanuts in real terms as the real value of the wages they were being paid fell.Which is why those Triumph designers weren’t given a blank cheque to produce a motor which could compete with that Merc and it’s also why Leyland Group trucks only had trucks like the ERGO in it’s armoury going into the 1970’s to compete with the assorted foreign competition ranged against it.

You definitely did not read kr’s post properly- it stated that the warranty costs were on the truck side! Nothing to do with silly cars.

[saviem]

Afternoon Gentlemen, to return to Ergos.

My ex Sankey contact has little interest in re-living, “the hell, of trying to do a good job, for a vagrant customer”, …his words yesterday evening over a pint of Banks`s, regarding producing cabs for Leyland Group!!(amongst other areas of Sankeys business)!

However, before we walked up the lane to the pub we looked at this thread together, (just briefly), particularly the images of the AEC cab on the 6x4. He is adamant that that was not the shape of the cab design that Southall asked Sankeys to look at!!! He recalls the design brief was from Southall, with no exterior help, that the design was “rounded”, and the envelope could possibly have been adapted to suit, short, long, (crew, or military), or sleeper. Manufacturing medium was to be pressed steel, hence Sankeys involvement. He again confirmed that the whole operation was recalled without any notice, but all dealings were with Southall, and not Leyland!!

Now there is something to be searched out and explored!!

Before I go back to my seeding, and as Carryfast is getting into overdrive again, just a small personal reflection. As someone who was involved in industry in the 60s and 70s in the UK, I can only comment as I found it…terrible Management, that failed to manage, a workforce that could get away with anything, and often did, (because management allowed it), and the cancerous growth of “middle management” whose total remit was to create constipation between all parties whilst "he " protected his little fiefdom, the workforce and their sheepish following of the Unions, and b… terrible senior management who really let it all happen, and had little idea of what the customer wanted, what his requirements and problems were, or where the market was going. A totally poisonous concoction, overlayed by a political class, (of all persuasions), who had little idea of the effect of their actions in all spheres.

Only a personal view…and it was not only in the UK…but it made me leave these shores.

Cheerio for now.

[carryfast]

Saviem:
Before I go back to my seeding, and as Carryfast is getting into overdrive again, just a small personal reflection. As someone who was involved in industry in the 60s and 70s in the UK, I can only comment as I found it…terrible Management, that failed to manage, a workforce that could get away with anything, and often did, (because management allowed it), and the cancerous growth of “middle management” whose total remit was to create constipation between all parties whilst "he " protected his little fiefdom, the workforce and their sheepish following of the Unions, and b… terrible senior management who really let it all happen, and had little idea of what the customer wanted, what his requirements and problems were, or where the market was going. A totally poisonous concoction, overlayed by a political class, (of all persuasions), who had little idea of the effect of their actions in all spheres.

Only a personal view…and it was not only in the UK…but it made me leave these shores.

Cheerio for now.

It’s obvious as to why anyone who worked at the time in a totally opposite alien culture to that,even to the point where strike action was undertaken sparingly and with regret by all concerned and WITH the sympathy of the management knowing the economic situation regards the price led inflation at the time,wouldn’t be understood here.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:
You definitely did not read kr’s post properly- it stated that the warranty costs were on the truck side! Nothing to do with silly cars.

As I read it it said ‘largely’ caused by warranty claims on the truck side.

[carryfast]

kr79:
That’s one of the criticisms that triumph should have been made to modify the car to use the existing rover 3.5v8 and the option of a 4.4 version of the same engine. Which although seen as less refined than triumphs offering it was well proven to be a reliable engine and would stand up to less meticulous maintaince than the more fragile triumph engine.

^ This.Considering that engine went on to power loads of other vehicles including TVR’s and Range Rovers while still being able to keep up with emissions regs for years after that point.IE 4.5 Litre Rover V8 v Merc 4.5 Litre no contest in long term running costs.That’s at least one example of it not being the production workers fault bearing in mind that they would have known that their jobs would probably have been more secure if they were putting better components in the products they were making.

[kr79]

I’d realy recommend the book to everyone although its mainly about the car side there’s lots of parallels and it doesn’t come down on either its all the unions fault or all stokes fault and gives an insight in to the general decline and problems facing British industury pre thatcher

[retired_old_fart]

Carryfast:

kr79:
That’s one of the criticisms that triumph should have been made to modify the car to use the existing rover 3.5v8 and the option of a 4.4 version of the same engine. Which although seen as less refined than triumphs offering it was well proven to be a reliable engine and would stand up to less meticulous maintaince than the more fragile triumph engine.

^ This.Considering that engine went on to power loads of other vehicles including TVR’s and Range Rovers while still being able to keep up with emissions regs for years after that point.IE 4.5 Litre Rover V8 v Merc 4.5 Litre no contest in long term running costs.That’s at least one example of it not being the production workers fault bearing in mind that they would have known that their jobs would probably have been more secure if they were putting better components in the products they were making.

At the risk of opening yet another can of worms, it might be as well to remind the knowledgeable CF in which part of the world the “Rover” V8 was born. Please don’t let us pretend that it was the product of good old British engineering.

[retired_old_fart]

Saviem, you’re not planting spuds again this year, I hope!

[zb_anorak]

Retired Old ■■■■:
At the risk of opening yet another can of worms, it might be as well to remind the knowledgeable CF in which part of the world the “Rover” V8 was born. Please don’t let us pretend that it was the product of good old British engineering.

As I have been saying all along, the British vehicle manufacturing sector would have been better off, if it had switched entirely to producing American designs. You can’t tell CF anything.

[ramone]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
Blimey zb whatever planet you’re on it certainly isn’t the one which applied then.It’s no surprise that you got a bit upset about me posting those 3 examples of the inconvenient truth that whatever the problems might or might not have been at that time they had zb all to do with bad workmanship throughout the automotive manufacturing industry.The success of a product usually came down to design and how much money was thrown at it at that stage and how much was being charged for it and how much the customer was willing to pay for it.Bearing in mind that wages during that time were falling in value by the day.The difference being that workers then were willing to fight to keep the value of their wages the same in real terms instead of being mug enough to do the same amount of work ( as opposed to quality which never altered ) for less pay in real terms as is the case today.

You have not read kr79’s post properly, have you? It says that the profits were low due to bad workmanship. The money was not there even if the workers deserved it, which they did not, for obvious reasons. The general theme is that, as a group, they were lazy, greedy, useless bums (with apologies to any competent members of the manufacturing industry whose companies were successful in the 1960s and '70s).

I think AEC had quite a good record with industrial relations with very few strikes.I think Leatherheads finest should watch Clarksons documentary on BL (cars) where he was joined by a manager a shop floor worker a main shop steward and a salesman.The salesman told how a marina or maxi or allegro arrived from the factory with a brown interior and 1 door card completely different to the rest.This was met by huge laughter from the shopsteward ,the shopfloor worker and even the manager ,this was followed by other revelations equally alarming and they all seemed very happy with themselves.Those strikes caused more damage to BL than any other 1 thing ,i agree that what they were producing was of poor quality but the forming in `68 of BLMC was the forming of a monster that couldnt be controlled.The logical thing using hindsight would have been to sell off the good bits but then again who would buy it when the people in charge and working there were doing the best to wreck it,saving the competion the problem of buying to close down ,a bit like Volvo buying Leyland bus to errase the competion

[saviem]

Retired Old ■■■■:
Saviem, you’re not planting spuds again this year, I hope!

Hi ROF, about 30% of our income is on contract spuds, but were currently getting some wheat in. Amazing how the wind chill has dried some of the fields, raising quite a dust cloud as we are working, yet we`ve still got snow on many headlands!

Had an unfortunate “run in” with some of the rambling fraternity today, but as the cross field footpath was still ploughed they chose another route,…through the kitchen garden!! End result, a big row! If you choose to walk in the country, then why do people not understand that it is always,“work in progress”, and allowances must be made…for goodness sake, if you cannot tolerate walking on the ploughed sod…what on earth do they want?

Carryfast…your skewed logic defeats even my sense of humour! Particularly when that subject is so serious.

Im away to my Bollinger…investment advice…buy spuds for the future!

Cheerio for now.

[dave_the_renegade]

Saviem:

Retired Old ■■■■:
Saviem, you’re not planting spuds again this year, I hope!

Hi ROF, about 30% of our income is on contract spuds, but were currently getting some wheat in. Amazing how the wind chill has dried some of the fields, raising quite a dust cloud as we are working, yet we`ve still got snow on many headlands!

Had an unfortunate “run in” with some of the rambling fraternity today, but as the cross field footpath was still ploughed they chose another route,…through the kitchen garden!! End result, a big row! If you choose to walk in the country, then why do people not understand that it is always,“work in progress”, and allowances must be made…for goodness sake, if you cannot tolerate walking on the ploughed sod…what on earth do they want?

Carryfast…your skewed logic defeats even my sense of humour! Particularly when that subject is so serious.

Im away to my Bollinger…investment advice…buy spuds for the future!

Cheerio for now.

Doesn’t the letting of your ground for contract spuds knacker the drainage John ? The farm adjoining my bungalow let about 40 acres of ground every year to a local grower,but the ground is like a pudding afterwards.
I know the money is good,but surely it takes away the natural drainage.
Cheers Dave.
PS. Sorry Boris for going off topic - Re Ergo cabs.

[ramone]

Saviem:
Afternoon Gentlemen, to return to Ergos.

My ex Sankey contact has little interest in re-living, “the hell, of trying to do a good job, for a vagrant customer”, …his words yesterday evening over a pint of Banks`s, regarding producing cabs for Leyland Group!!(amongst other areas of Sankeys business)!

However, before we walked up the lane to the pub we looked at this thread together, (just briefly), particularly the images of the AEC cab on the 6x4. He is adamant that that was not the shape of the cab design that Southall asked Sankeys to look at!!! He recalls the design brief was from Southall, with no exterior help, that the design was “rounded”, and the envelope could possibly have been adapted to suit, short, long, (crew, or military), or sleeper. Manufacturing medium was to be pressed steel, hence Sankeys involvement. He again confirmed that the whole operation was recalled without any notice, but all dealings were with Southall, and not Leyland!!

Now there is something to be searched out and explored!!

Before I go back to my seeding, and as Carryfast is getting into overdrive again, just a small personal reflection. As someone who was involved in industry in the 60s and 70s in the UK, I can only comment as I found it…terrible Management, that failed to manage, a workforce that could get away with anything, and often did, (because management allowed it), and the cancerous growth of “middle management” whose total remit was to create constipation between all parties whilst "he " protected his little fiefdom, the workforce and their sheepish following of the Unions, and b… terrible senior management who really let it all happen, and had little idea of what the customer wanted, what his requirements and problems were, or where the market was going. A totally poisonous concoction, overlayed by a political class, (of all persuasions), who had little idea of the effect of their actions in all spheres.

Only a personal view…and it was not only in the UK…but it made me leave these shores.

Cheerio for now.

I think it was mentioned on here that the american styled cab was for testing purposes only and marathon testing to be precise, i personally think it was an ugly looking thing but thats just my opinion, i imagine your friend would have some very interesting tales to tell but i suppose to him it would be very tedious bearing in mind it was his job … did you buy the Belgian mandator you mentioned on here a while back , if so any chance of a few pics?

[carryfast]

ramone:

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
Blimey zb whatever planet you’re on it certainly isn’t the one which applied then.It’s no surprise that you got a bit upset about me posting those 3 examples of the inconvenient truth that whatever the problems might or might not have been at that time they had zb all to do with bad workmanship throughout the automotive manufacturing industry.The success of a product usually came down to design and how much money was thrown at it at that stage and how much was being charged for it and how much the customer was willing to pay for it.Bearing in mind that wages during that time were falling in value by the day.The difference being that workers then were willing to fight to keep the value of their wages the same in real terms instead of being mug enough to do the same amount of work ( as opposed to quality which never altered ) for less pay in real terms as is the case today.

You have not read kr79’s post properly, have you? It says that the profits were low due to bad workmanship. The money was not there even if the workers deserved it, which they did not, for obvious reasons. The general theme is that, as a group, they were lazy, greedy, useless bums (with apologies to any competent members of the manufacturing industry whose companies were successful in the 1960s and '70s).

I think AEC had quite a good record with industrial relations with very few strikes.I think Leatherheads finest should watch Clarksons documentary on BL (cars) where he was joined by a manager a shop floor worker a main shop steward and a salesman.The salesman told how a marina or maxi or allegro arrived from the factory with a brown interior and 1 door card completely different to the rest.This was met by huge laughter from the shopsteward ,the shopfloor worker and even the manager ,this was followed by other revelations equally alarming and they all seemed very happy with themselves.Those strikes caused more damage to BL than any other 1 thing ,i agree that what they were producing was of poor quality but the forming in `68 of BLMC was the forming of a monster that couldnt be controlled.The logical thing using hindsight would have been to sell off the good bits but then again who would buy it when the people in charge and working there were doing the best to wreck it,saving the competion the problem of buying to close down ,a bit like Volvo buying Leyland bus to errase the competion

No surprise that Clarkson chose the zb products of the Austin Morris divisions to base the laugh on though.It seems to me that the circumstances related to mainly that division alone are being used to tar the whole firm,including all the truck divisions,with the same brush.The fact is most of the different companies that were brought together to eventually form BLMC wouldn’t have survived up to that point had they not all been merged and they mostly produced the best they could given the economic resources available to them.While the main cause of the failure of Britain’s economy and industries,as a whole,not just the automotive manufacturing industry,was and still is,the successive suicidal austerity economic policies since the end of WW2 and the resulting customer buying habits of that.Which in car terms,just like the truck market,usually meant asking for a Rolls built for the price of a Cortina then throwing their toys out of the pram when the manufacturers told them it couldn’t be done.Then buying a zb mickey mouse Jap import to make the point and then finding that what they actually wanted was something built like a Merc or a BMW and then borrowing the money to pay for it.

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Retired Old ■■■■:
At the risk of opening yet another can of worms, it might be as well to remind the knowledgeable CF in which part of the world the “Rover” V8 was born. Please don’t let us pretend that it was the product of good old British engineering.

As I have been saying all along, the British vehicle manufacturing sector would have been better off, if it had switched entirely to producing American designs. You can’t tell CF anything.

I think it was actually me who said it was the American way or no way.

Like the AEC 3 VGT fitted with a full choice of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ Detroit motors.In production before 1970.Which just left the issue of the fact that the domestic market could only afford to pay for a zb ERGO.

[ramone]

Back on track and here`s a H.Baker Mandator ,they were always a well turned out fleet and the colour scheme compliments the motor ,i think the best ergo

[saviem]

Dave the Renegade:
Doesn’t the letting of your ground for contract spuds knacker the drainage John ? The farm adjoining my bungalow let about 40 acres of ground every year to a local grower,but the ground is like a pudding afterwards.
I know the money is good,but surely it takes away the natural drainage.
Cheers Dave.
PS. Sorry Boris for going off topic - Re Ergo cabs.

Evening Dave, no, we hold the contract direct with the retailer, and looking after the ground is a priority, (they ain`t making anymore)! These are well drained sandy fields up on the county border with Staffordshire. As you get into the valley we go on more clay, good growing land, but its been an absolute b… with the rain, and we are only just ploughing the stubble from last year! My neighbour has gone on salad leaves, but its so labour intensive, and really when you cost the job out…well Im happy with bumbling along as I am.

A little true story about an Ergomatic,

I think that it was 73 when I found myself, one wet misty and miserably damp cold Sunday afternoon up at some bleak agricultural establishment near Kirremuir, to collect two old Fordson tractors that a pal of my Uncles had fallen in love with, and would be the backload to get the Marshall and myself back to Shropshire.

It was so misty and that bone chilling wet cold, that I never really saw anything around me. Getting them on was hard enough, in fact getting the one started caused some fun,no brakes of course, so tying them down, and chocking the little devils occupied me totally. So much so, that as I stood back to check my work, I realised that I was by myself, the old Farmer had gone into the house!

You know,when I climbed back into that cab, unlike so many of the time, it was a welcoming place. The 505, (as all AECs), fired up almost as I touched the starter, release that reassuring air pack handbrake lever, (somehow far more reassuring than a Clayton Dewander lock actuator set up, as on the Atkinsons), snicked her into gear and began to manouver out of the yard . Always a pleasure in an Ergomatic, somehow the relationship between steering wheel, pedals, and seat I always found comfortable.

The farmstead door opened, and the old boy was waving at me…“dont go, the wife has some tea for you, youve a long drive ahead”…and never was it more welcome! And yes it was a long drive, but in a very comfortable, (and lightly laden) lorry. That cab really was a magic carpet, and I still favour the Marshall as the best British 6wheeler.

Regards to Tracey,Cheerio for now.

[lawrence_dunbar]

This is the one I drove UBB 805 G, not a bad motor, But after the fitters fitted a water filter to stop the static in the system the bloody heater didn’t get very warm never mind hot, Prior to this It was very good kept the windows clear as well as keeping the plates lovely & warm, Regards Larry.

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:
Like the AEC 3 VGT fitted with a full choice of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ Detroit motors.In production before 1970.Which just left the issue of the fact that the domestic market could only afford to pay for a zb ERGO.

Considering the 3VGT was first seen in 1968, that’s 18 months from a one-off concept mock-up to full production- an astonishingly quick lead time. To do the job properly, it takes at least 5 years. Your dream vehicle would have been launched at about the same time as the Marathon. How would it have been superior to that?