Bonjour Michel,
Votre images est trop grande. Elles font le forum plus grand du écran. Pouvez vous mettre images de moins taille a l’avenir, s’il vous plait? Voici les Berliets, a 33% de taille:
Merci, mon ami.
Merci, mon ami.
Evening all, Julien, a very warm welcome to the threads, and what a super collection of Berliets you have…congratulations!
Well Gentlemen, Im becoming more organised…tonight I write these words from my “new” office in the old cow sheds!! Though in reality somewhat changed from their original purpose, now with a “winding staircase” to my working area…and meeting room below…but the old computer equipment remains…apologies! But I write these words looking straight at the famous picture on the opposite wall of Le Centaure 350 TR 69 with the Helicopter FBKMZ hovering above M Lamberets refrigerated trailer…and believe me those shots took some organising!
Lets just think about Le Centaure, and where she came from, and the circumstances of her birth.
The combined Saviem, Berliet companies were losing market share in the years following their `75 marriage. Mainly to DAF, and Mercedes, but also to Unic/Fiat. Why? Because of a bad decision, (taken because of the litigation/compensation threats of certain elements of the respective Dealer Networks.), to run similar, but separate ranges to try to placate marque afficianadoes, alongside each other. The net result, loyal buyers left for fresh pastures. The TR320, had clawed back some of the tarnished reputation of the earlier TR300, and in the background Renault/Berliet engineers had already achieved quite startling results, in both specific fuel consumption, and performance with the new 9.8 litre 06 20 30, and could see the 400 hp potential, but with good fuel consumption of the 12 litre 06. 35. 40, which potentially outshone the 14.88 litre 08. 35. 30. which was now pushing at 356 DIN hp.
I seem to remember that a senior management/ marketing briefing late `77, indicated a future shelf life of 10-12 years for the V engine, by which time it was anticipated that the 9.8 litre. and 12 litres would cover the horsepower range from 250-420 din hp.
Gentlemen…my apologies, on my computer this thread has grown to such an extent, that I can ony see around 12 words on my “old” screen…I shall leave, and try to continue later.
Saviem are you sure you have not picked the wrong bottle up and consumed a bottle of tractor oil 
instead of Bollinger 
cheers Johnnie 
The thread’s got narrower again. Good. If that is due to members reducing the size of their photographs to the same size as my screen, merci beaucoup to those members! 
[zb]
anorak:
The thread’s got narrower again. Good. If that is due to members reducing the size of their photographs to the same size as my screen, merci beaucoup to those members!
D’accord! Robert:)
Berliet GPRK 10 6x2 from 1960 engine 180 hp.
michel:
Berliet GPRK 10 6x2 from 1960 engine 180 hp.
Love the colour scheme! Robert
Saviem:
Evening all, Julien, a very warm welcome to the threads, and what a super collection of Berliets you have…congratulations!Well Gentlemen, Im becoming more organised…tonight I write these words from my “new” office in the old cow sheds!! Though in reality somewhat changed from their original purpose, now with a “winding staircase” to my working area…and meeting room below…but the old computer equipment remains…apologies! But I write these words looking straight at the famous picture on the opposite wall of Le Centaure 350 TR 69 with the Helicopter FBKMZ hovering above M Lamberets refrigerated trailer…and believe me those shots took some organising!
Lets just think about Le Centaure, and where she came from, and the circumstances of her birth.
The combined Saviem, Berliet companies were losing market share in the years following their `75 marriage. Mainly to DAF, and Mercedes, but also to Unic/Fiat. Why? Because of a bad decision, (taken because of the litigation/compensation threats of certain elements of the respective Dealer Networks.), to run similar, but separate ranges to try to placate marque afficianadoes, alongside each other. The net result, loyal buyers left for fresh pastures. The TR320, had clawed back some of the tarnished reputation of the earlier TR300, and in the background Renault/Berliet engineers had already achieved quite startling results, in both specific fuel consumption, and performance with the new 9.8 litre 06 20 30, and could see the 400 hp potential, but with good fuel consumption of the 12 litre 06. 35. 40, which potentially outshone the 14.88 litre 08. 35. 30. which was now pushing at 356 DIN hp.
I seem to remember that a senior management/ marketing briefing late `77, indicated a future shelf life of 10-12 years for the V engine, by which time it was anticipated that the 9.8 litre. and 12 litres would cover the horsepower range from 250-420 din hp.
Gentlemen…my apologies, on my computer this thread has grown to such an extent, that I can ony see around 12 words on my “old” screen…I shall leave, and try to continue later.
Evening Gentlemen, thanks for your input…sammyopposite…as if I would mistake the right bottle, for goodness sake Bollinger does not come in plastic!!! [zb]…thanks are due to Rikki, no one else, Michel, what a beautiful lorry…and remember all of us UK folk, those 6x2s ran at 26 tonnes back in the 60s. Robert welcome, no ERFs here, but Le Centaure, and her earlier 356 sisters were a delight to drive, oodles, and oodles of creamy torque, and a bunk worth sleeping upon.
Well we have been “battening down the hatches” today…(stormy weather due?)…believe me the Grain Dryer is going fit to bust…so much water in the Grain, but just so much Grain…(equals low prices)!.
No , far from the weather…tomorrow begins our annual misery…that public disorder known as the “V Festival”…music■■? for morons■■? Hordes of the great unwashed descending on a bit of Shropshire, easily parted from their money, and creating mayhem around the villages. We have had to organise long detours to get the Harvest in so as to miss the A5/A41…pity the poor lorry driver trying to use those routes…but no one cares , do they? Let alone the organisations that represent them.
Le Centaure…continued…
Before we look in detail at Le Centaure, it is important to complete the overall picture that so much influenced, and directed where this small part of the overall product line up came from, and was projected to fit within.
Just to give an idea of relative size of Berliet at 1975, there were 24000 employees on the payroll in France, and a range of 120, (overlapping, but well engineered lorries). The combined Saviem/Berliet Dealer Network comprised of a total of 226 outlets, many (openly, and with great aggression), kicking chunks out of each other. The vehicle range was utterly duplicated for each market sector…
Ignoring all the optional versions the “core” range for 78/79 comprised…
6-21 tonnes Saviem Serie J 797/798 engine 130/175 hp
6-21 tonnes Berliet Serie B 797/798 engine130/175 hp.
15/38 tonnes Saviem Serie H MAN 2565 185/287hp
15/38 tonnes Berliet Serie G Berliet 06. 20.30. 187/287 hp
17.5/38 tonne Saviem PS 30 Man d2556 300 hp
17.5/38 tonne Berliet TR280/TR305 Berliet 12 litre 06. 35. 40. 266/ 300 hp.
17 .5/38 tonne Berliet TR350 Berliet 14.88 litre 08. 35.40. 356 hp
17.5/38 tonnes Saviem PX40 Berliet 14.88 litre 356 hp
17.5/ 180 tonnes Berliet TRH 350 14.88 litre 356 hp
So logically the job in hand was to merge the products into one range of vehicles…
Rationalise and merge the Dealer Network,( both those "owned " by the respective “factories”, and Independent ones), into one network
Rebuild, and “re brand” all the vehicles for export markets into one identity…
Then do to those Importers what had to be done for the Domestic Market, rationalise them…
Let alone sort out the overcapacity in both production facilities, and overall production of lorries and bus/coaches.
A pretty large task, and impossible to achieve without great blood letting, both in manpower, facility closure, and initial loss of market share.
Would the men in “real power”…the string pullers" of Government have the guts to do it…History says that they made a “■■■■” of it…and history is right!
But initially they had the right man in the Corsican Francoise Zanotti…charismatic, fearless in decision making, and far sighted in directing the monolithic combine…but the “guts” in Paris ran away… disposed of Zanotti, then, (seeking corporate political safety), put in cost cutters,( Pierre Semerina, Phillipe Grass, et a)l, condemming the Grouping, and its products to a slow and drawn out decline that they really did not deserve.
The initial product strategy was correct, Saviem products to replace Berliet ones at the lighter end of the market, where their reliability could ensure market success. Berliet “vertically integrated” French product for Maxi-Code, and above weight ranges,whose success would result from the dramatic re investment in R&D to ensure overall economy of total operation
Create a new image. Berliets sober past was thrown aside with the promotional images of the Black 6x4 TRH356s, the white Lamberet Fridges…and perhaps the female element . Then the promotion of the “living interior”, kitchen pack…(by Lyons Lamberet)…for as in the UK the Middle East, (and in the case of French operators those lands below the Saraha), gave a mystical air to the long distance man. Suddenly operators were talking about Berliet …Renault Vehicules Industriels…
Then came Le Centaure…
From the design studios of Venissieux…
No!!!
Like in the UK , as well as the fascination of ultra long hall Intercontinental haulage, came the romantic image of the American “Trucker”…crossing the desert plains, coast to coast…the romance of it all…
Seized upon by the publication “Revue Lui dautomobiles”…the concept of “a super truck for Europe”
Styled by the brilliant Lucien Moge, in 1977, interpreted and created in the steel and fibreglass by Attelier Ets Lamberet`s Jean-Pierre Augrer from February 1978, to become, (quite rightly) the star attraction of the October 1978 Paris Salon Le Centaure had arrived!
And what an impact, none of us who were involved with Le Centaure, the images, the scenes, the sheer lunatic…“lets try this” …could never have imagined that this design concept would last as a generic product from 1978 to 1983, and perhaps create a new genre of living lorry cab.
The standard of fit and finish that Lamberet created was the equal of any premier coachbuilder. The stitching on the bunk, the neat joy stick controlling the electric mirrors, (an innovation in 78), the Porta Potti, that on demand could rise to the occasion with a discreet hiss…which it once did when I was demonstrating the vehicle to that eminent French Journalist, Roger Roy…only he was sitting on the seat that neatly folded out of the way to reveal the" Loo"… finding himself sitting in the “position for action”…and all at 85kph!!!
A total lack of rattles from the installed equipment, and the quiet environment, easy to loose track of just how fast you were going…And the sheer presence of the actual lorry itself!
So how many Le Centaures were there?
Now that is a tricky question to answer, and to attempt to answer it I must go back to my lengthy scene setting above, and I have to say I really truthfully do not know.
The proposal to rationalise the Dealer Network envisaged post `79, a “core” of 40 Main Dealers, either Factory owned or Independent. The majority being the former. These would be "supported " by 120/160, Sub Dealers, and service points. To arrive at this formation a vicious and bloody rationalisation would have had to take place.
The absolute success of Le Centaure as a concept, led to the proposition of a limited production run of Le Centaure “models”, not all would be the full specification, rather that an operator could create a bespoke Le Centaure lorry from an extensive list of options, to suit his requirements. To this end I am aware that Budgets were written on the basis of the 40 Main Dealers taking one Demonstration model, with the (modest), target of selling a further 9 vehicles to “prominent” flagship fleets or owner operators, whose acquisition would in turn influence other operators to purchase RVI Products.
But of course the rationalisation of the Dealer Network in France did not result as the plan! And I was away from France in the world of Mack, so I do not have the answer to how many of the “genre” Le Centaure were sold. The Berliet Foundation may have the figure, (but I have often found their enthusiasm for the products overtakes true interpretation…and that is an observation, not a criticism, for they have done much to preserve what could be lost forever…and should be praised for their efforts).
So I will speak of the “works” examples that I know.
Of course the first was the one often photographed with the registration 350. TR. 69. Star of our shots with the Helicopter FBKMZ,( and a certain…now glamorous Grandmother)! Following her star studded career she found a home with former Saviem TR300V8 operators the Aquilino Brothers, in the Perrache Market District, re registered as 64.11.HL.69. Normally Maurice only kept his lorries for three years, which explains why I saw her, without her Lamberet side door Refrigerated trailer outside Rouen, around August 85, then coupled to a red Savoyard, but still with the ff writing on her flanks.
Her sister was used as a Demonstrator, (13 speed Fuller), and in a lot of publicity pictures for Renault Oils, registered as 75. 27.GU. 33. she had the “simple” passenger seat…and a “hissing sid” Portaloo…oh and basic brown seat trim…
Renault Formula 1 Team had one, plus a couple of high spec 356s
Renault-Gitane, Bernard Hinault`s Tour De France Team had one
Then there was the pale blue TR356 shown with a Kaiser semi Low loader,
And the TR300 version
Plus the TR305 right hand drive that came to the UK…potential never realised from what “big doris” posts earlier on indicate.
Then a couple were completed in black…but somehow they lost their look and impact compared to the red and white ones…
Then of course the Le Centaure concept remained but sort of evolved into the R360 Turboliner…the first example being a Le Centaure, but badged as Turboliner on our 800sq metre show stand at Frankfurt in September 1981. She was supported by the “new” R310 12 litre, where the future lay, as opposed to the V8.
Then there were a number of “disco” coloured R360 Demonstrators, but all semi Le Centaure specifications. On the photographs all the trailer bogies have, (ugly), wheel trims.
As I write, I can remember certainly 10 pure factory demo Le Centaure type tractors…but in the retail market…I wonder just how many?
And Juliens is a real rare one, I wonder was she supplied to her original owner by Ets Mory SA, of Tours, (a Fillale of France Vehicles SA), because in July 81 they had a" road show", at which a Le Centaure R356, (then the “old” model), was shown…
Simple thread…Le Centaure,…but a complicated background, and rather a mystery, do you not think…
I suppose it is the French version of the 8LXB Guy Big J…
Im away to my Bollinger, to try to recall other Le Centaures…and remember that wonderful cabin, the quietness, the surging, creamy torrent of power, and that ultra slick 13 speed Fuller…
Cheery oh for now.
Bravo, and vivre le Centaure! Saviem you have enthused me with your essay above. It had all the right ingredients, indeed - my kind of lorry, then! Robert 
Good evening Gents (and possibly Ladies btw, who says le Centaure should be a men-only subject…)
Monsieur SAVIEM, as usual that was a very nice tale, keep them coming please.
Here’s a little update from my side. I had a number of conversations with Julien since my last post and we discussed Le Centaure at length.
Worth noting that Julien really is quite a remarkable person. His young age versus his encyclopaedic knowledge of Berliet/Saviem/RVI is something of a mystery, his birthdate roughly coincides with the arrival of the R370 or even R390.
Or perhaps less so once you consider that he is currently rescuing his father’s Super-8 films in digital format. You will have guessed, his dad was a Middle East driver himself so he has some pedigree.
Either way, he is a Berliet/Renault passionate through and through and seems extremely committed to rescuing as many as he can. And not only lorries but coaches as well. Perhaps one day he will put on some posts on that subject too.
Anyway, here are a few facts he shared with me and I hope he won’t mind me passing them on. I have a very high level of confidence in his knowledge, if only judging by the fact that he owns not one but a whole bunch of Berliet and Renault V8s - and maintains them all himself.
- Based on his knowledge, some 400 Centaures have been produced in total. This includes all Berliets TR305s and TR(H)350s, and then Renault Véhicule Industriels R310s and R360s (like Julien’s).
- There was demand for many more but apparently Lamberet were operating from a very small-scale operation, almost like a boutique (partly due, as SAVIEM said, that operators could make their Centaure à la carte i.e. fully customised) hence demand far exceeded Lamberet’s capacity.
- Apparently, exactly ONE Saviem PX40 Centaure was ever produced (SAVIEM’s equivalent to the TR350)
- You could tell the Berliets from the Renaults by the interior, if it was beige then it was already an R310 or R360.
- In the late nineties / early 2000s Julien knew of a few remaining units, even one in the area of Béziers which he tried very hard to acquire. Sadly, that too ended up acrossing the Mediterranean. To Julien’s knowledge - and he seems extremely well-connected in France’s Renault Trucks and collector lorry circles, there is only one original Centaure left - the one Julien owns.
- Sadly, it seems that upon arrival in Africa their new owners would usually cut the high-roof Centaure cabin and replace with a second-hand flat one, to enhance clearance from the trees…
Aside from the specific Centaure, he also happens to be in touch with the owner of the last-known TR300, the first-generation Berliet V8 (the high-revving one with the propensity to explode). In fact, Julien is involved in, if not entirely responsible for, the regular maintenance work on that particular unit. Which by the way you can see at work here: youtu.be/siIAO6mKSNg
Once again, all above information is 100% to Julien’s credit, I am just translating.
The TR 300 from the video before being restored by its new owner.
Davidoff:
Good evening Gents (and possibly Ladies btw, who says le Centaure should be a men-only subject…)Monsieur SAVIEM, as usual that was a very nice tale, keep them coming please.
Here’s a little update from my side. I had a number of conversations with Julien since my last post and we discussed Le Centaure at length.
Worth noting that Julien really is quite a remarkable person. His young age versus his encyclopaedic knowledge of Berliet/Saviem/RVI is something of a mystery, his birthdate roughly coincides with the arrival of the R370 or even R390.
Or perhaps less so once you consider that he is currently rescuing his father’s Super-8 films in digital format. You will have guessed, his dad was a Middle East driver himself so he has some pedigree.Either way, he is a Berliet/Renault passionate through and through and seems extremely committed to rescuing as many as he can. And not only lorries but coaches as well. Perhaps one day he will put on some posts on that subject too.
Anyway, here are a few facts he shared with me and I hope he won’t mind me passing them on. I have a very high level of confidence in his knowledge, if only judging by the fact that he owns not one but a whole bunch of Berliet and Renault V8s - and maintains them all himself.
- Based on his knowledge, some 400 Centaures have been produced in total. This includes all Berliets TR305s and TR(H)350s, and then Renault Véhicule Industriels R310s and R360s (like Julien’s).
- There was demand for many more but apparently Lamberet were operating from a very small-scale operation, almost like a boutique (partly due, as SAVIEM said, that operators could make their Centaure à la carte i.e. fully customised) hence demand far exceeded Lamberet’s capacity.
- Apparently, exactly ONE Saviem PX40 Centaure was ever produced (SAVIEM’s equivalent to the TR350)
- You could tell the Berliets from the Renaults by the interior, if it was beige then it was already an R310 or R360.
- In the late nineties / early 2000s Julien knew of a few remaining units, even one in the area of Béziers which he tried very hard to acquire. Sadly, that too ended up acrossing the Mediterranean. To Julien’s knowledge - and he seems extremely well-connected in France’s Renault Trucks and collector lorry circles, there is only one original Centaure left - the one Julien owns.
- Sadly, it seems that upon arrival in Africa their new owners would usually cut the high-roof Centaure cabin and replace with a second-hand flat one, to enhance clearance from the trees…
Aside from the specific Centaure, he also happens to be in touch with the owner of the last-known TR300, the first-generation Berliet V8 (the high-revving one with the propensity to explode). In fact, Julien is involved in, if not entirely responsible for, the regular maintenance work on that particular unit. Which by the way you can see at work here: youtu.be/siIAO6mKSNg
Once again, all above information is 100% to Julien’s credit, I am just translating.
An excellent piece of reportage David, thank you - and of course thanks to Julien also. Mmm… if Julien is well connected to the fraternity poids lourdes I wonder if he can discover any more about France’s ERF NGC Europeans! Robert
Bon Soir mes amis…just a couple of thoughts came to me today regarding Le Centaure…mainly as I struggled to cope with the post V Festival traffic, (as it was unable, via its Sat Navs to secure a quick route out to the M6…well, it came down our lane…very interesting when confronted by a convoy of Deere`s fully loaded with Grain, (but then the rain came so we had to stop)!
The shots of the first Le Centaure, with the Bell Ranger Helicopter, around 6 were published, (posters, handouts, and issued to the press). But the rarest of them all…the one with Monique, (in red jumpsuit), and the pilot, seemingly trying to land on the roof of the trailer…but no one had tested the strength of the (non meat rail equipped), trailer roof…ooops!!! No wonder she, and Andre the pilot looked concerned! The shot shows the Ranger almost on the trailer roof, not the one with it about 3 metres above, with only the pilot on board…So if you have one of those pictures…cherish it!!!
Sadly, I seem to have loads of Le Centaure stuff here in boxes, (including a Photostat of the original document between Berliet, and Lamberet, regarding regarding the "interpretation of Lucien Moge`s concept vehicle, and follow ups with Jean Pierre Augrer regarding progress on the design.
You know Lamberet is worthy of a thread of its own, many of you will have used its superb refrigerated bodywork, indeed my old colleague from Saviem, Daniel Laffly (who , may be known to some of you). For it was he, who having become totally fed up with the “politics” of the RVI combine, set up the importation of M L amberets excellent products into the UK and Ireland, basing himself in the exotic superbs of Warrington! Tes Lamberets works at Vonnais were quite “modest”, but their skills were immense.
Second thought, (and one that has excercised my little grey cells somewhat)…I cannot see that any generic Le Centaure was ever based on the Saviem PX40 by the “factory”. Perhaps one “afficianado” either a Saviem operator, or Dealer, applied Saviem badging to a Berliet Le Centaure model, but the powers that were controlling the new RVI would never, ever, allow a Le Centaure Saviem PX40 to be created, good hevons, no, no, no. At the Palais des Congres Lyon venue for the April 1978 Congress of the French Hauliers organisation, L`Unostra, outside the venue , to greet visitors was a black, chrome, and red Berliet TRH350, to the left,(reg 11. 60.W. 69.), and to the right, (I know I parked her there)!, a factory primer Saviem PS30 4x2, (346. W. 86.)…how sad is a memory that can recall those registration numbers, yet at 16.30 hrs today had to ring my wife from the village, to ask her what she had asked me to purchase for her!!!
Goodness I personally felt the wrath of “management” after my “error”, in telling my friend Pat Kennet, (RIP), of the performance capabilities of the “new” Saviem PS30, rather than extolling the virtues of the Berliet product!!! (Somewhere on one of these threads I have written the total story…but my error got me to the USA , and a market that I loved…and away from petty politics)!!!
Oh well, I feel like a , (copious) Bollinger, then tea…
Cheerio for now.
The only Saviem PX40 I had personal experience of, was the one for my friends at AEM, and that was a rigid…what power for 19 tonnes!!!
Third thought, just come to me , another Le Centaure spec was the blue, and white one , again at Francfort, a 360, 79/80…(was not Frankfurt bi-annual)?
robthedog:
copied from another thread
Evening all,
robthedog, that is a nice picture of one of Marcel Couliers 266hp TR280s, part of the big order that we received in Belgium. Looks like it was taken on the wash at Hamme. We took back the ERF NGC European as one of the part exchanges, but I did not know what happened to her.
Some of Coulier`s safety procedures were more Belgian, than Calor!!!
There was another Calor outfit in Holland, EKTRA(■■?), in Rotterdam, I think.
Perhaps a glass of Bollinger will help me remember!
Cheerio for now.
Thanks Steve that’s much better. Never drove one of those but have been a passenger I thought they were a good truck esp inside space wise etc.
neversweat1:
Cropped version if you don’t mind0
Steve
Algerian Berliet GLM12.
