essexpete:
A very interesting thread, thanks.
Seconded, it’s always interesting when people with a lot more nollidge that wot I got start trading ideas and facts.
ERF-NGC-European:
Well, I’ve been out of it for a long time and perhaps the likes of I-shift et al have sorted the job out. But there’s another element too: people with redundant skills often feel deskilled. Now that’s whole 'nother discussion - OMG!
You count me in on that. I have little experience with constant-mesh boxes of any stripe, but (too) many years and miles with synchro boxes. And that all learning and whatnot is nowadays all but redundant: it’s all electronic auto this that and the other. As a consequence, my left leg is withering away despite my left foot doing a tap dance on the footrest. Still, that’s progress…innit.
ParkRoyal2100:
ERF-NGC-European:
Well, I’ve been out of it for a long time and perhaps the likes of I-shift et al have sorted the job out. But there’s another element too: people with redundant skills often feel deskilled. Now that’s whole 'nother discussion - OMG!You count me in on that. I have little experience with constant-mesh boxes of any stripe, but (too) many years and miles with synchro boxes. And that all learning and whatnot is nowadays all but redundant: it’s all electronic auto this that and the other. As a consequence, my left leg is withering away despite my left foot doing a tap dance on the footrest. Still, that’s progress…innit.
You’re closer to the truth than you think. For a long time, my dance teacher couldn’t understand why I had full muscular strength and fine motor-coordination in my left foot but not in my right foot.
‘I can’t come up with a reason!’ she said.
‘I can!’ I replied, ‘It’s years of controlling heavy clutches’.
‘Wow! That’s it! Eureka!’ she shouted.
So if we don’t bring back the old tech in lorries there’ll be no more Strictly on telly next year 
With the possible exception of Foden I can’t think of any rear engined bus/coach chassis with a manual (constant mesh) transmission. I’m sure someone will prove me wrong. 
In answer to bus company subsidy: yes several subsidies at different times. Local authority subsidy to operate certain routes, a national bus purchase grant - IIRC 2 different versions, one at least setting out the vehicle specification required to qualify, and rebated fuel.
Didn’t/don’t Allinson make auto boxes or were they just for heavy haulage.
The Mercedes we run have the 12 speed constant mesh with a computer taking care of gear changing. It must be new on the job because most make a crunch or bang when they change. Endless problems with them , every one of them have been in several times with gearbox and clutch problems , they are off the road for weeks come back and are no better. A bit off topic but i just don’t like auto lorries and but never buy another manual car
cav551 wrote; With the possible exception of Foden I can’t think of any rear engined bus/coach chassis with a manual (constant mesh) transmission. I’m sure someone will prove me wrong.
When Van Hee Transport of Gateshead went into driver training, we acquired a small number of single deck Buses for PSV licence training, these were not rear engine but mid under floor and had constant mesh boxes, I can’t recall the make now but were maybe Dennis, we were always working on them so can’t believe I can’t recall the make! I always thought these buses were a bit too ancient especially where the gearbox was concerned as at the time most PSV companies were now using semi or full auto vehicles, I suppose it taught learners how to double de-clutch properly but I doubt they would even use the skill once qualified. Later Dennis coaches I worked on used for Incident Control units in the Fire Service did have rear ■■■■■■■ engines but were all Allison Auto anyway as was all the Appliance fleet, a requirement in such organisations these days as the drivers would be mostly non HGV trained previously to becoming a Firefighter, a much easier job for the Instructors too compared to the days before Auto boxes. Franky.
cav551:
With the possible exception of Foden I can’t think of any rear engined bus/coach chassis with a manual (constant mesh) transmission. I’m sure someone will prove me wrong.
It’s an interesting question.
But constant mesh fuller etc was probably at least as common, if not more common than, Allison, in rear engine US bus types.
Interestingly it seemed to be either or Fuller/Spicer v Allison torque converter type auto.
The weird Brit preselector idea used in our buses never seemed to be on their radar.
I think even the one used for the bus over dub in Stevie Wonder’s record Just Enough For The City sounds like it’s one their usual constant mesh manual suspects not an Allison.
You are certainly correct about US interstate buses but the early PD series GM buses and MCI buses usually had Spicer 3, 4 or 5 speed constant mesh boxes. I suppose that the GM engine was so noisy anyway that the driver could hear it to time the changes. I’ve found that even mid frame underfloor and constant mesh don’t go too well together once you factor in the passenger noise.
cav551:
You are certainly correct about US interstate buses but the early PD series GM buses and MCI buses usually had Spicer 3, 4 or 5 speed constant mesh boxes. I suppose that the GM engine was so noisy anyway that the driver could hear it to time the changes. I’ve found that even mid frame underfloor and constant mesh don’t go too well together once you factor in the passenger noise.
There were even examples of US buses fitted with 10 speed manual and 14 litre ■■■■■■■ on relatively local work.
The use of Eaton or Spicer manual or Allison auto on Brit types instead of pre selector or Voith transmissions respectively might have been a good bet.
But obviously a torque converter or fluid flywheel transmission would understandably be chosen to avoid any perceived clutch wear issues in frequent stop start conditions.Or specialist types not driven by career drivers.
Don’t think that it’s wise to de skill the truck driver pool in that regard except in the case of heavy haulage STGO or frequent stop start applications where the advantages of a torque converter type transmission possibly outweigh the capabilities of a mechanical clutch.
Other than that, auto or even synchromesh transmissions, just means dumbing down of driver skills.
cav551:
With the possible exception of Foden I can’t think of any rear engined bus/coach chassis with a manual (constant mesh) transmission. I’m sure someone will prove me wrong.
I would imagine that any rear-engined bus would’ve come with some sort of integral/ integrated (semi-) automatic, not that I ain’t an expert nor nuffingk.
On underfloor mid-engined platforms and to incorporate part of Geordielad’s reply to you:
Geordielad:
When Van Hee Transport of Gateshead went into driver training, we acquired a small number of single deck Buses for PSV licence training, these were not rear engine but mid under floor and had constant mesh boxes, I can’t recall the make now but were maybe Dennis, we were always working on them so can’t believe I can’t recall the make!
… so, as Clarkson would say, I went on the internet.
According to this source on the Leyland Tiger Cub https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Leyland_Motors:_Tiger_Cub:
The launch transmission was the same four-speed constant mesh unit which had been used in the Tiger PS1, Titan PD1 and their export equivalents. There was a choice of either a single-speed or two-speed rear axle, both of spiral-bevel form and derived from the Comet 90 design, the latter using an electrically-actuated Eaton driving head in a Leyland casing. […] In 1962 the power unit became the 125 bhp 6.75-litre O400H and the type codes were revised, to PSUC1/11, PSUC1/12T and PSUC1/13. These were respectively manual bus, manual coach and pneumocyclic bus versions. The narrow models were discontinued. At this time the manual transmission options changed to Leyland 4-speed synchromesh or Albion 5-speed constant mesh
(my emphases)
It turns out that constant-mesh boxes on '50s buses (quite popular ones) weren’t unheard of.
ERF-NGC-European:
ParkRoyal2100:
ERF-NGC-European:
Well, I’ve been out of it for a long time and perhaps the likes of I-shift et al have sorted the job out. But there’s another element too: people with redundant skills often feel deskilled. Now that’s whole 'nother discussion - OMG!You count me in on that. I have little experience with constant-mesh boxes of any stripe, but (too) many years and miles with synchro boxes. And that all learning and whatnot is nowadays all but redundant: it’s all electronic auto this that and the other. As a consequence, my left leg is withering away despite my left foot doing a tap dance on the footrest. Still, that’s progress…innit.
So if we don’t bring back the old tech in lorries there’ll be no more Strictly on telly next year
I was about to make some smart-arse comment about split-shifts and skip-shifts, but I shall refrain
Do Fuller still make manual gearboxes?
ramone:
Do Fuller still make manual gearboxes?
Yes. America and Oz still use them. I believe the 18-sp one is popular. Euro decibel rules basically drove Fuller out of this neck of the woods, as the drive-by noise was higher than the rules allowed. So it appears that rather than re-develop the popular Eaton/Fuller Twin-splitter and old 9 & 13-sp designs they simply took their trade elsewhere. Our loss their gain it would seem.
ERF-NGC-European:
ramone:
Do Fuller still make manual gearboxes?Yes. America and Oz still use them. I believe the 18-sp one is popular. Euro decibel rules basically drove Fuller out of this neck of the woods, as the drive-by noise was higher than the rules allowed. So it appears that rather than re-develop the popular Eaton/Fuller Twin-splitter and old 9 & 13-sp designs they simply took their trade elsewhere. Our loss their gain it would seem.
Ah but could you imagine the recent influx of new drivers straight out of a Corsa into a 13 speed Fuller , many can’t drive autos never mind manuals. Where i work we have 2 manual artics and only 2 of us ever drive them some refuse the others don’t know how they work and both are 16 speed ZFs probably the easiest of the manuals still on the market !!!
ramone:
ERF-NGC-European:
ramone:
Do Fuller still make manual gearboxes?Yes. America and Oz still use them. I believe the 18-sp one is popular. Euro decibel rules basically drove Fuller out of this neck of the woods, as the drive-by noise was higher than the rules allowed. So it appears that rather than re-develop the popular Eaton/Fuller Twin-splitter and old 9 & 13-sp designs they simply took their trade elsewhere. Our loss their gain it would seem.
Ah but could you imagine the recent influx of new drivers straight out of a Corsa into a 13 speed Fuller , many can’t drive autos never mind manuals. Where i work we have 2 manual artics and only 2 of us ever drive them some refuse the others don’t know how they work and both are 16 speed ZFs probably the easiest of the manuals still on the market !!!
Which leaves the question of where/how does NZ for example find its pool of new drivers ready willing and able to be thrown the keys of a 9 axle drawbar outfit and the default choice of an 18 speed Fuller.
Britain is no longer the nation of Spitfire pilots it seems.
It’s painful to watch the deliberate dumbing down of our society.
This is mine, being converted to a mobile home.
Original spec was ten speed overdrive Road Ranger and hub reduction drive.
Coaches were generally specced with seven speed Spiders and V6 Detroits.
Carryfast:
ramone:
ERF-NGC-European:
ramone:
Do Fuller still make manual gearboxes?Yes. America and Oz still use them. I believe the 18-sp one is popular. Euro decibel rules basically drove Fuller out of this neck of the woods, as the drive-by noise was higher than the rules allowed. So it appears that rather than re-develop the popular Eaton/Fuller Twin-splitter and old 9 & 13-sp designs they simply took their trade elsewhere. Our loss their gain it would seem.
Ah but could you imagine the recent influx of new drivers straight out of a Corsa into a 13 speed Fuller , many can’t drive autos never mind manuals. Where i work we have 2 manual artics and only 2 of us ever drive them some refuse the others don’t know how they work and both are 16 speed ZFs probably the easiest of the manuals still on the market !!!
Which leaves the question of where/how does NZ for example find its pool of new drivers ready willing and able to be thrown the keys of a 9 axle drawbar outfit and the default choice of an 18 speed Fuller.
Britain is no longer the nation of Spitfire pilots it seems.
It’s painful to watch the deliberate dumbing down of our society.
One of the reasons being the job isn’t what it was in many respects , the obvious being little gems like the dcpc , but also shift patterns, too many jobs being advertised any 5 from 7 which actually means tuesday and wednesday off A certain high street retailer advertising on their trailers order up to midnight for next day delivery the same firm constantly advertising for drivers days and nights 5 from 7 , many older drivers dont want it and voted with their feet leaving a shortage which was a shock to the industry. Drivers expected to work all sorts of shifts doctors surgerys monday to friday for a 3 minitue appointment
A manager who i work with was telling me his 20 year old son just passed his class1 and was loving the job the next time i spoke to him his lad was on his 6th job , class1 no experience walks if he doesn’t like what he is given to do. This is the industry we work in. Give some of the new generation a manual of any kind they would refuse ,it is what the industry and successive governments have created with new rules regulations shift patterns and pay ,they have to remember the lorry is the machine not the driver