PCorrUK:
Can anybody btw, tell me the actual health and safety at work law that was broken in the whole circumstance? Because I also believe they can’t just bandy ‘health and safety’ around willy nilly without there being a specific law being broken. Companies like to expand ‘health and safety’ laws to their pleasing, which has created the many myths around them which people ridicule (without knowing they’re myths). I’m just wandering if this is one of those cases. Or if there is a specific one which is broken if what the company believes about the accident were true?
The Health & Safety at Work Act (1974) doesn’t just cover employers. It also places certain requirements on contractors, suppliers and, most importantly in your case, employees.
Section 7 of the act states that it is the duty of every employee while at work to take reasonable care of him or herself and of any other person who may be affected by his or her actions.
Falling asleep at the wheel of a company vehicle is not taking reasonable care of yourself or others as required by the act. You’ve no wiggle room there and the company haven’t it appears, based on the information provided, dismissed you unfairly.
@coffeeholic
While of course a person is not expected to fall asleep at the wheel, I did not feel sleepy before the accident. I do not remember just before falling asleep, only the second after waking up. It happened in between 2 roundabouts which were 1/4 mile apart, which took 30 seconds between the 2. It happened very quickly. And for unexplainable reasons, except perhaps the undue stress the company put me in? I did take reasonable care of myself (I’m fit and healthy, aren’t fat, eat well, had enough sleep between shifts, didn’t feel tired to the point where I should stop and sleep, don’t drink alcohol, don’t take drugs, etc etc) before the incident. I simply don’t know what else I could have done to reasonably not do it. Are you saying at the very second I fell asleep, I should have not fallen asleep and stopped the vehicle? Isn’t that impossible?
I can’t explain (currently) why I fell asleep. Neither can the company or it’s doctor. There is surely a difference between negligently being out of control of the vehicle and accidentally being out of control of the vehicle even though I took all possible measures against it?
I am though considering the worse, not really sure of any plan of action to take for it though at the moment.
@m1cks
I agree. But they specifically say, quote: “Breach of Health & Safety, may we remind you that it is your responsibility to ensure that you have sufficient rest inbetween shifts. As a professional driver you are in control of large vehicle that when not controlled in a responsible manner can result in accidents”
I didn’t need reminding about that. I did have sufficient rest and sleep inbetween the shifts. I did not ‘carry on driving even when I thought I was sleepy’. I was driving it in a responsible manner, until I fell asleep, for which my body and brain gave me no pre-warning.
I think (if a medical condition is not exposed that I didn’t and still don’t know about), that the stress of having to make specific times on a tight route which they KNEW had multiple delays on it, coupled with bad tempered people at the collection end and ■■■■-taking people at the drop-off end, along with a long and constant journey was the cause. Which is why I feel ‘hard done by’.
@Lee1976
While falling asleep is a bad mitigating circumstance, speeding is absolute, but there are mitigating circumstances. I’ve not been able to find anywhere that falling asleep is one though I admit.
id reckon your in with a shout…if that Tosco fanny that couldn’t hop off the tail lift last week has any argument,then you have to have a similar one,… ive been stopped plenty and have been dug up about my speed on the card,i.e showing 56 mph for about 100 miles coming off the stranraer ferry , but if your not caught by camera,then all they can do is moan and threaten.there obviously keeping your card so that the traffic mob and vosa can try and workout something to pin on you as they wont know exactly what to try and do you for,so they will need to confab then see if the prosecution will take something on. go to any agency for interview,then get a solicitor to get your card back or claim for wages lost every day. the hard part is trying to think up something to cover you nodding off as if its medical,and they cant think of something to do you for,then itl be dvla theyl go to… anytime ive been done for something,then ive always wanted to go up before the judge and say I cant remember anything about the alledged offence as I was blocked out of my brains with drink,but ive never been brave enough to see the look on the faces.goodluck anyway.
PCorrUK: @coffeeholic
While of course a person is not expected to fall asleep at the wheel, I did not feel sleepy before the accident. I do not remember just before falling asleep, only the second after waking up. It happened in between 2 roundabouts which were 1/4 mile apart, which took 30 seconds between the 2. It happened very quickly. And for unexplainable reasons, except perhaps the undue stress the company put me in? I did take reasonable care of myself (I’m fit and healthy, aren’t fat, eat well, had enough sleep between shifts, didn’t feel tired to the point where I should stop and sleep, don’t drink alcohol, don’t take drugs, etc etc) before the incident. I simply don’t know what else I could have done to reasonably not do it. Are you saying at the very second I fell asleep, I should have not fallen asleep and stopped the vehicle? Isn’t that impossible? I can’t explain (currently) why I fell asleep. Neither can the company or it’s doctor.
In that case you are unfit and unsafe to drive any motor-propelled vehicle and if you have any consideration for other motorists you will stay off the roads until you find out what your “problem” is.
I think maybe the problem is you keep tell8ng yourself you fell asleep. After reading your latest post in which you expand slightly on what happened it sounds more like you blacked out than fell asleep.
Sadly it’s lose lose for you. If asleep, youre sacked. If blackout then expect to have your licence withdrawn by a medical panel. This would also no doubt see you in breach of your employment contract as you’re unable to perform the duties you’re employed for, and see you out the door too.
At this stage if I were you, I’d be more worried why I blacked out.
If it was down to low blood pressure then that is very easily sorted with diet and possibly some tablets - DVLA not interested if its that easily sorted but I would get advice on driving/machinery from a GP
I know because my daughter has just gone through this and I am quite sure the NHS would not allow a nurse to care for very poorly children if there was an ongoing risk
Low blood pressure or hypotension is not necessarily a bad thing if you don’t show any symptoms from it, and is preferable to hypertension. Naturally low blood pressure can reduced the risk of things like heart attack, stroke, kidney diesese unless it is very low. Often you don’t even need medication to resolve the problem, simply increasing the amount of salt in your diet, increasing the amount of fluids you drink while decreasing the amount of alcoholic drinks you take is enough. It’s certainly easier to deal with and correct than hypertension.
Normally with hypotension fainting and dizziness occurs when going from a seated to a standing position due to blood pooling but that’s not likely to have happened here. If the OP does suffer from low blood pressure, a reading of 90/60 or less would be regarded as low, then dehydration however could be a contributing factor if he had nothing to drink for a few hours while driving.
Didn’t think that course I did last year would help in posting on TruckNet.
@LeftHandDown
I agree, and I wont be. I’m hoping it’s an easily solved problem such as the posters below you suggest. If it isn’t, I wont drive again, even my car which I drive my children in.
@m1cks
I honestly didn’t think there was much difference between blacking out and sleeping (or ‘nodding off momentarily’). But having read your post and looked into it (on the net, maybe a bad idea) you are right.
While I understand (and agree with) that I’d lose my licence if it were not an easily solvable problem, I would rather that than be a risk. Also, I think while the company would still be right in letting me go, the ‘gross misconduct’ part shouldn’t stand, which is really my main problem with how it went.
@Lee1976
I haven’t informed DVLA as yet. I want to be sure what happened first.
@ROG
Thanks, I really hope it is such a problem that can sorted in that way. I love driving and would be lost without it tbh. And I wouldn’t just carry on unless I believed this couldn’t happen again.
@coffeeholic
That’s interesting. There is very very very rare occasions when I’ve felt slightly dizzy after sitting down then standing up before. All were at home and all were when I felt to hot so got up to turn the heating down/off and I’ve always put it down to that, feeling too hot. But I had no such warning signs like that before the accident. I did not however have anything to drink the entire journey down, but did have some snacks, crisps etc. This is all stuff I’ll mention to the GP on friday.
From what you say, it’s possible that you just fainted due to lack of food or drink. I don’t know if this would be an acceptable mitigating factor in your appeal against gross misconduct though as your employer would argue that you didn’t take adequate care of yourself throughout the day which ultimately led to your accident.
The fact you say that you’d just gone round a rbt and “fell asleep” within the 1/4 mile to the next rbt suggests to me that you blacked out rather than fell asleep. Nodding off when driving nearly always happens when you’re on a long boring stretch of road, usually at cruising speed with nothing else to do except hold the wheel. Having just navigated a rbt and accelerating up towards another one 30 down the road would imho be plenty of action to keep your brain from nodding off, especially as you said quite categorically that you did not fell tired or drowsy at any point in the journey and have absolutely no recollection of what happened between the 1st rbt and the crash. Are you sure you weren’t staring at your phone trying to hack out a text message or update your Farcebook status??
syramax:
can I suggest you get some info regarding sleep apnea (scuse spelling) its a lot more common than people think and is easily treated .
I couldn’t agree more. Sleep Apnoea is a huge problem in our industry and so many people have no idea they are suffering. Quite often it becomes apparent after something like this happens.
Being honest we all know when we are tired and getting sleepy. It doesn’t catch us out, we get symptoms beforehand like yawning, rubbing our eyes etc and we know what is coming next. If you falling asleep caught you out and you had no idea it was going to happen then it must be a health issue.
I would seek advice from ACAS as your employer may have handled the whole situation badly. It seems to me they should have gone down the medical dismissal route rather than gross misconduct. I doubt they followed correct procedures anyway.
Were you suspended on full pay throughout the process? Did you receive all notifications of meetings etc in writing giving sufficient notice? Were minutes taken of the meetings? Did you get copies? Were you informed you could be accompanied? etc etc etc If none of these then it is a strong case for unfair dismissal.
Unfair dismissal is not about the reason you were dismissed - it’s about the process used being unfair. ACAS will normally write to or contact your employer. They have no regulatory power but certainly put the wind up them.
Go see a doctor - get assessed for sleep apnoea. They can send you to a sleep centre if they suspect there’s a problem. You may have been in bed 71/2 - 8 hours but what quality of sleep?
‘unfair’ dismissal. Unfair dismissal is more about the process followed than the ‘crime’ committed and a lot of employers do not follow known good practice and procedure when dismissing people. This can land them in a tribunal and in most cases they’ll settle out of court based on a projected loss of earnings as going to court will be more expensive. it is also whether the punishment fits the level of ‘crime’.
The road traffic law and what happened. Unless you are able to prove a medical reason for your condition then you are guilty of an offence under road traffic law. No getting away from that.
Nobody was killed/hurt and only 3rd party damage … that helps
Of course if you manage to prove a medical condition there’s a good chance your vocational licence will be revoked. If you don’t prove a medical condition then you will likely be guilty of an offence. It sounds a bit of a no-win situation.
Personally I think pursuing the medical condition may make things worse - but of course if there is a medical condition then you should find out and if that means loss of licence then you should accept that.
