ianto:
If i recall there was also an F licence that was issued just to farmers who wanted to carry their own goods
Thats correct, Regards Larry.
Bewick:
cattle wagon man:
Good Afternoon all !
Since I started following this thread , I had a look at the gathering of paperwork that my father accumulated during his haulage business started in 1946 . His first acquisition was aC Licencefrom a retiring taxi business in Sedbergh . It included a contract for the carrying of the Sedbergh School Boystrunksfrom th various school houses within Sedbergh , and the transportation to the Railway Station , 1 mile away . That was accomplished with an Austin 10 ( or 12 ) saloon and a small trailer which he constructed himself . Ill try to scan the newspaper reports of his struggles to get aB Licencefor a radius of 25 miles from Sedbergh . Any interest to you fellows ?Cheers ,
Cattle wagon man .I’m going to get my objection off to the LA in the morning without fail ! Cheers Dennis
Hi Dennis et al ,
Just before you all fire-off the Letters of Objection, Id better warn you that in those consequences , it would not be me whod you`ll be facing ,… but my dear wife !! 
Can I remind those of us who are old enough of the haulier’s enticement when trying to flog an old lorry to an eager young prospective owner driver? “It’ll be OK, son, you can run it on my licence”.
The first two “A” licences I had transferred to Bewick Haulage ( as it was called then) in 1968 and 1969 from Coward Bros. of Sedbergh had a Normal User as follows ( IIRC) " Livestock and Agricultural requisites as required, Household Removals, Coal and Coke as required, Builders requisites and materials as required, Gun Cotton from Lancaster to Dumfries , Dental cabinets as required". I could have missed one or two items but the thing was once I got this “A” licence from Cowards two motors my main Customers were Libby’s Milnthorpe and Henry Cooke ( 1932) Ltd both based at Milnthorpe so I did sail close to the wind as neither of these Firms figured on the Coward Bros Normal User but things moved so quickly and demand for my services was overwhelming at the time so I applied, in my own right, for a third motor to be added to my “A” Licence ! BOOM ! in came objections from all quarters ! This entailed the arrangement of a meeting of what was called “The Road and Rail negotiating committee” which took place in a room at Oxenholme Railway Station in mid 1970. I engaged the services of the late Michael Winkley a Solicitor in Kendal who had had experience of the “ins and outs” of Traffic Courts. Well we were armed with two excellent letters of support from both Libby’s and Henry Cooke’s requiring my services as a haulier but not only that I had to disclose my T/O figures for the past twelve months which raised a few eyebrows from a couple of envious local hauliers ! All I wanted my normal user to read was " Tinned Goods for Messrs Libby’s as required but mainly to London and the Home Counties and Paper and raw materials as required for Henry Cooke( 1932) Ltd." But to achieve this Normal User I was faced with objections from two Household Removal firms, so I agreed to remove that from my N/U, I had an objection from a local Livestock Haulier so that was removed from my N/U and an objection from a local Tipper operator so that piece was removed. British Railways objected to everything including the addition of Libby’s but it was subsequently acknowledged during the meeting that as BR had closed the Goods depots in Kendal and Milnthorpe their objections were unfounded !
So I ended up with having my third “A” licence with the attached Normal User as stated above granted ! Great that’s all I wanted ! Result ! Cheers Bewick.
I also applied for an A licence. Maybe 1970. This was based on discussions with Charlie Dent of Sovereign chemicals, who complained long and loud that Athersmith’s, who they used, would agree to send in a trailer and it wouldn’t appear for 2 or 3 days, or they would load it and it wouldn’t get delivered for a few days…
The meeting was in Barrow Town Hall. Sovereign Chemicals didn’t turn up, despite earlier promises. I did have a letter from them stating that they would be happy to give me business. Jack Brady made a speech about how they could provide a trailer whenever required. BR said that they could handle any traffic offered to them (LIAR!) and the licence was refused.
On the way out, Jack Brady patted me on the shoulder and told me they were doing me a favour, haulage wasn’t a good way to earn a living…
‘O’ licensing started about a year later, so it didn’t make a huge difference to me.
John.
Sov Chems John Ooh! brings back nightmares mate ! I delivered into them a number of times from London via J & W Watt early '69 when they had just started up off Ainslie St. and they asked if I could reload on a couple of occasions for their small distribution depot in Essex. Only trouble was the load had to be delivered on a Saturday morning which wasn’t a lot of good being M/T at noon on a Saturday in deepest Essex, F that !! I charged accordingly which didn’t go down too well with SOVS ! But shortly afterwards I believe they had a “mysterious” fire at Ainslie St. ( exploding filing cabinets !) and from there on it was “upward and onward” down Park Rd.! but they weren’t my idea of a “kosher” customer John !!! Cheers Dennis.
There were always two compulsory objectors at any A Licence application hearing, BRS and BR.
C licences (For carriage of own goods) were granted automatically provided they had no criminal record or problems with GV9’s or drivers offences
A & B licences needed to be applied for with vehicle registration number and Unladen weight and then published in ‘Applications & Decisions’ A paper that was widely circulated and other ‘Haulage Suppliers’ given three weeks to object. British Railways and BRS/Pickfords automatically objected to every one. Originally then the Licencing Authority would hold a ‘Pubic Enquiry’ (Like a Court case held in a court) and decide whether or not to grant the licence. The problem for many was that they had ‘To put there money where there mouth was’ and buy, register (If a new vehicle) and tax and insure for about 6-8 weeks in the hope of getting a licence. As Dennis points out getting a licence was far from certain and it was a brave man who made such a commitment. I know quite of few who have been left with a new registered vehicle to sell because they were refused a licence.
However like my Grandfather always said ‘There was favouritism in hell’ and he was a man who fully expected that was where he was going and worked with that ambition. He had been trading many years before the licencing system came in and we had an ‘A licence’ to carry any goods anywhere, but at the end of the war he was replacing Bedford 2 tonners with O models 5 tonners & OB’s The licencing authority automaticlly granted 10 cwt extra unladen weight and I obviously was too young to know what went on 1946-50 however in 1950 they bought a Bedford ‘O model’ artic with a 28ft furniture van trailer (Again replacing a 1938 2 tonner) Not only would this be a significant increase in unladen weight but also you had to have an ‘A licence’ for the tractor and another for the trailer.
Dad told me the tale and I should have asked my Grandfather but never thought at the time. The artic was painted signwritten and ready to put on the road and dad said to his father ‘Shouldn’t we be applying for the A licences’ ‘Don’t worry, Ive got that taken care of’ Eventually my father was given the task of going through to Low Friar Street Newcastle where the Northern Traffic Area was situated and told to ask for Wally Vine. Mr Vine was head clerk.
When he went in Wally Vine came through to the counter and said ‘Hello you must be Harry, your dad said you were on your way. Come on through into my office, it wont take long’ and arranged for a member of staff to give them two cups of coffee. In about ten minutes my dad was handed back the A licence duly altered & stamped with two licence discs one for the tractor & one for the trailer. It never had been publshed in A & D and how my Grandfather got to know Wally Vine I never found out. But I suspect several more were granted like that.
In my experience a Mr Hanlon was licencing authority and the most famous transport solicitor was Campbell-Wardlaw who was on a retainer to the Road Haulage Association and the Road-Rail comittee was formed to ease the burden on the Licencing Authority.
The Road Rail comittee for the Darlington area met about one a month at the North Eastern Hotel Darlington and it considered the evidence submitted by the applicant and the objectors and made a recomendation to Hanlon or his assistant (A solicitor who did it part time with his practice). The Road-Rail committees recomendations were always accepted unless an apeal was made by the applicant and then it went to a full public enquirey
Amongst the 'fiddle’s I had heard of was a well known haulier in Spennymoor John Henry Dent was alleged to have had identical vehicles from time to time with same reg nos with one tax disk & one A licence.
For our part from my memory between 1962 to the O licences being inttroduced we added in excess of 50 vehicles to our A licence. Ony 5 were the result of us buying out businesses. One with 2 A & 1B licence and another with 2 A and we easily got these incorporated into our A licence. Other ease of increasing fleet was to get a temporary licence at a time of short term increased trade (Usually Christmas) this could be added to the licence at the Licencing authority’s discression immediatly on application for 8 weeks . At the end of the 8 weeks it was accepted that trade had inceased anda full licence was granted. We did this about 3 or 4 times. Also we got 2 vehicles on contract licence for one of our customers (New Equipment. Steel Style Furniture Croxdale Durham) Conttact licences were given out like C licences over the counter provided you had a contract with a customer & only carried goods belonging to that customer. Then by arguing that they needed raw materials which did not belong to them bringing back as return loads they could be converted to full A licences.
However our biggest break came when my dad was appointed to the Road-Rail comittee. Although my grandfather had been a founder member of the Road Haulage Association after attending a meeting with my dad who was a teenager at the time when my grandfather 'raised the roof; whilst they were complaining of ratecutting telling they all were a load of hypocrites & giving his opinion of each seperately we never took part in any RHA activity, so although I have no idea how he got appointed it was not through RHA. However I do know he met Mr Hanlon the Traffic commisionair for the Northern area at several social occasions.
As I explained earlier the Road -Rail comittee had bee set up by Hanlon as a way of streamlining applications and usually consisted of a solicitor as chairman, a representative of British Railways & one of BRS A Justice of the Peace representing the general public and a representative of the Haulage Industry.
I remember dad saying on one occasion he was sitting when an application from us came up for an extra 5 vehicles on our A licence and he had to adjourn out of the room as he had a conflict of interest but before he went into the bar of the North Eastern Hotel for a quick coffee he was told by his fellow members 'Well I surpose we can’t oppose this one or we won’t be able to face you# After about 5 min he was asked back in to retake his place on the comittee & quietly told it had been granted
Comprehensively and interestingly explained Carl ! The years that the Carriers Licencing controlled the Transport industry were “interesting” to say the least ! I was only involved in the latter years which for a 21/24 year old certainly made for an interesting experience !!! Regards Dennis.
Well when I dicided to go it as a owner driver in 1972,
Lawrence Dunbar:
Well when I dicided to go it as a owner driver in 1972,
I had to attend a TC Meeting in Newcastle Headed by the Infamous Tony Hanlon, He really went to town with me, I suppose he was just doing his very well high paid job, & new sweet ■■■■ all about running wagons, His role was to control hard working hauliers that ran on A licences in the days after denationalisastion. He was a hard man to even talk too, He is most likley dead & buried now, He did make things very hard in his day for hauliers to Increase their fleet, But thats a long time ago, But Nowts changes has it, Regards Larry.
Bewick:
Sov Chems John Ooh! brings back nightmares mate ! I delivered into them a number of times from London via J & W Watt early '69 when they had just started up off Ainslie St. and they asked if I could reload on a couple of occasions for their small distribution depot in Essex. Only trouble was the load had to be delivered on a Saturday morning which wasn’t a lot of good being M/T at noon on a Saturday in deepest Essex, F that !! I charged accordingly which didn’t go down too well with SOVS ! But shortly afterwards I believe they had a “mysterious” fire at Ainslie St. ( exploding filing cabinets !) and from there on it was “upward and onward” down Park Rd.! but they weren’t my idea of a “kosher” customer John !!! Cheers Dennis.
I did quite a few loads for Sovereign before I moved to vans. I didn’t load from Ainslie Street, they had moved to Park Road when I got my ‘o’ licences. I believe that Charlie and Roger only just got to stay out of jail on some tax fiddle they were working on empty drums because they were employing a number of people by then. They took out a large loan from a government source to enable them to buy the new factory, but it had some limit on the amount that they were allowed to take out of the business as drawings. They somehow circumvented this, but were found out.
I only took one load to Chelmsford. I seem to remember that the ‘depot’ was the garage of a relative’s house. As I remember, you left the M1 around Toddington and then spent what seemed like the next 3 days winding around B roads, even worse (and this is saying a lot) than the A590! I can’t remember where I backloaded from, but it wasn’t local to Chelmsford.
On the plus side, they always paid on the dot without any phone call reminders.
John