steery1:
Ok Thanks for the reply.
so could I take the card out at the last customers premises, drive to b&q to get stuff for a personal diy project, take it home, work on the project but cant just drive home with the card out? I know it probably sounds stupid but is that correct?
Legally you take the card out when the journey is finished, the journey finishes when you get back to base, it doesn’t matter whether the vehicle is empty or you’re carrying stuff for yourself the return journey is part of the same journey and legally all driving must be recorded as driving on the tachograph.
To take your driver card out and continue driving is one of the more serious tachograph offences and could potentially see you in court or before the TC.
steery1:
Ok Thanks for the reply.
so could I take the card out at the last customers premises, drive to b&q to get stuff for a personal diy project, take it home, work on the project but cant just drive home with the card out? I know it probably sounds stupid but is that correct?
Legally you take the card out when the journey is finished, the journey finishes when you get back to base, it doesn’t matter whether the vehicle is empty or you’re carrying stuff for yourself the return journey is part of the same journey and legally all driving must be recorded as driving on the tachograph.
To take your driver card out and continue driving is one of the more serious tachograph offences and could potentially see you in court or before the TC.
Im not getting why I must drive back to base before I can “legally” start using the lorry for personal use. Surely I can start using the lorry for personal use when, well, when I start using it for personal use. (If that makes sense).
I dont always go straight back to base. Would I have to drive past b&q, (just an example) drive past my home, drive all the way to base just to take my card out and drive back again?
steery1:
Im not getting why I must drive back to base before I can “legally” start using the lorry for personal use. Surely I can start using the lorry for personal use when, well, when I start using it for personal use. (If that makes sense).
I dont always go straight back to base. Would I have to drive past b&q, (just an example) drive past my home, drive all the way to base just to take my card out and drive back again?
If you’re employer says it’s OK there’s nothing to stop you carrying personal goods as long as the driving time is recorded as such, regardless of who the goods belong to you will remain in-scope of EU regulations for the return part of the journey.
Article 9 - (EC) 561/2006
Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a
vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return
from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s
home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the
driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or
break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a
bunk or couchette
The whole of the journey from and back to base must be recorded under EU regs but you can break that journey for private use on a 7.5
example
start at base
drive to point A under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive from point A to point B and then from point B back to point A
drive from point A to base under EU regs
ROG:
The whole of the journey from and back to base must be recorded under EU regs but you can break that journey for private use on a 7.5
example
start at base
drive to point A under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive from point A to point B and then from point B back to point A
drive from point A to base under EU regs
Thanks. So how would your example work and mine not?
Start at base
drive to customer under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive to b&q and then home to carry out diy project.
11hrs rest
drive from home to base under EU regs
ROG:
The whole of the journey from and back to base must be recorded under EU regs but you can break that journey for private use on a 7.5
example
start at base
drive to point A under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive from point A to point B and then from point B back to point A
drive from point A to base under EU regs
Thanks. So how would your example work and mine not?
Start at base
drive to customer under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive to b&q and then home to carry out diy project.
11hrs rest
drive from home to base under EU regs
Is the journey from the customer back to base recorded under EU regs ? - if not then its illegal because the whole of the journey is from base to customer and back again
In your scenario you have come off EU regs at the customer so the journey from customer to base is not covered
Had you returned to the customer after the rest then completed the recorded journey under EU regs it would have been legal
If the base to customer journey was 2 hours then it stands to reason that another 2 hours must be recorded for the return journey
Drive from midlands base to London = 3 hours EU regs
Private use from London to Andover
Andover to midlands = 3 hours EU regs
So it is legal to book off at the customers premises and select “out of scope for personal use?” to drive to Andover?
If so why can I not drive to b&q or a football match or a restaurant instead, under personal use. Spend the weekend sightseeing around the south coast even, then drive home, 11hrs rest then drive back to base u der EU regs?
I hope I dont come across as being deliberately pedantic as the b&q thing was just an example but the PL football match was something I have been thinking about for a while.
steery1:
Start at base
drive to customer under EU regs
select out of scope for private use to drive to b&q and then home to carry out diy project.
11hrs rest
drive from home to base under EU regs
As I’ve already said you can’t just book off wherever you feel like it and drive home out of scope, the regulations are clear (see quote in my previous post) that travelling to a location to take charge of a vehicle that’s in-scope of EU regulations, or returning from such a place, that’s not at the drivers home or employers operating centre cannot be regarded as rest or break, therefore using the vehicle for private use is not an option.
In your scenario you’re travelling home from a location where you was in charge of a vehicle that was in-scope of EU regulations, that travelling time cannot be counted as rest or break, therefore it must be other work or POA both of which should be recorded on the tachograph.
Drive from midlands base to London = 3 hours EU regs
Private use from London to Andover
Andover to midlands = 3 hours EU regs
So it is legal to book off at the customers premises and select “out of scope for personal use?” to drive to Andover?
If so why can I not drive to b&q or a football match or a restaurant instead, under personal use. Spend the weekend sightseeing around the south coast even, then drive home, 11hrs rest then drive back to base u der EU regs?
I hope I dont come across as being deliberately pedantic as the b&q thing was just an example but the PL football match was something I have been thinking about for a while.
If it took you 4 hours (EU REGS) to do the drive from base to customer then took you 4 hours (EU REGS) to drive back to base after the rest then ok but you cannot do 4 hours to then less than 4 hours back under the regs because the regs would need 8 hours for the entire journey for that journey to be completed
the idea of having the regs is that so no-one can take an unfair advantage of the driving time laws
without those regs being in place then operators of 7.5s could say to a driver that after going from base to customer they are to select out of scope and claim they used it for visiting a mate who happened to be a mile from the base therefore saving lots of official driving time etc
ROG:
GEEBEE45 (graham) quoted me a case where that was acceptable as no advantage was deemed to be gained
I’d be interested to see a link to this case
I’ve no idea whether or not a court or the DVSA would accept it but it’s certainly not in compliance with the regulations, in fact it’s so far out of compliance with the regulations that I’d never suggest doing it until I see a court case accepting it or have a letter/email from the DVSA saying it’s OK.
ROG:
GEEBEE45 (graham) quoted me a case where that was acceptable as no advantage was deemed to be gained
I’d be interested to see a link to this case
I’ve no idea whether or not a court or the DVSA would accept it but it’s certainly not in compliance with the regulations, in fact it’s so far out of compliance with the regulations that I’d never suggest doing it until I see a court case accepting it or have a letter/email from the DVSA saying it’s OK.
Grey area maybe?
Also rog, surely it is legal to “visit a mate” while out of scope for personal use? Why could that not be legal?
I also dont see why the return journey after being out of scope for personal use must be of the same duration as the trip before out of scope?
Not a grey area at-all in my opinion, there have been court cases where drivers have been convicted for travelling to a location to take charge of a vehicle in-scope of EU regulations without booking the time on a tachograph.
Look up the Skills Coaches case.
Like I said “it’s so far out of compliance with the regulations that I’d never suggest doing it until I see a court case accepting it or have a letter/email from the DVSA saying it’s OK” and I don’t think that’s going to happen.
Not a grey area at-all in my opinion, there have been court cases where drivers have been convicted for travelling to a location to take charge of a vehicle in-scope of EU regulations without booking the time on a tachograph.
Look up the Skills Coaches case.
I searched for that case but could only find a summary here…
Surely that judgement refers to when a driver is travelling in his own car/vehicle to pick up a company vehicle at a point designated by his employer somewhere other than the company depot?
The journey to pick up the vehicle is to a point designated by the employer and is advantageous to the employer, and therefore needs to be recorded. I can totally understand that.
Would my scenario not be different? Finishing my deliveries for the day, selecting out of scope, then basically doing my own thing for the weekend?
When I get up Monday morning, card in and drive to the yard recording on the tacho.
Those judgements were when employees clock card records did not at all match their tacho records I think.
The first judgement when they clocked in at the depo, then drove to a pick-up point to collect the company vehicle without recording the trip from depo to compzny vehicle.
The second judgement when they clocked in at the depo, did a run for the company in a non-tacho vehicle, then did another run in a tacho vehicle without recording the first non-tacho run.
I can understand both of those judgements because on both occaisions they were working for their employer, (obviously as their work records at the depo confirmed this), but failed to record the extra work.
My scenario is totally different as I wouldnt be “on the clock” or getting paid in any way for my trip to b&q or wherever. And my employer would definitely not be receiving an advantage as in fact he’s doing me a favour by allowing me to use a company vehicle for personal use.
I will try to remember to ask GB45 next time I speak to him but I do remember him saying that no action was taken as it did not give an economical advantage = makes logical sense
What would have happened in another EU state could be different but that is the way the authorities here saw it
