6 hours 7 mins total work what break?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
41

ROG:

stevieboy308:

ROG:
I think member wheelyb was only referring only to a 9 hour work shift when he said -

you must have 15mins before exceeding 6hrs work, you need another 15 before exceeding 9 hrs work

Could be wrong …

the rest of his sentence that you’ve not quoted says you’re wrong to give him the benefit of doubt!

I looked at it differently …
If the total work in the shift was 9 hours then that statement would be correct because you would need at least 15 before going over 6 hours work and another 15 before completing the 9 hours of work = yes?

I put completing and he put exceeding so perhaps the word could have been chosen better

I sort of read between the lines and assumed that’s what he was getting at

this is the line he was trying to correct :wink: it doesn’t mention working time length and does say another break will be needed before the shift ends, so that would cover it in the 6 - 9 hour scenario

wheelyb:

Coffeeholic:
The WTD is pretty simple really when it comes to breaks.

Have a break, minimum 15 minutes, before exceeding 6 hours of work (driving and other work -POA is neither work nor break)
Next break is due before exceeding another 6 hours work from the end of that break or before the end of the shift, whichever comes first.
If you do between 6 and 9 hours work in the shift make sure to have a total of 30 minutes break minimum.
If you do more than 9 hours work in the shift make sure to have a total of 45 minutes break minimum..

you must have 15mins before exceeding 6hrs work, you need another 15 before exceeding 9 hrs work, not ‘another’ 6 hrs from last 15 min break.
Eg: 06:00-11:45 work, (5hr 45m work)
11:45-12:00 break
12:00-15:10 work, (3h work, 8h 45m total)
15:10-15:25 break
15:25-15:30 work and finish shift, total 9h shift

That’s a random example how I see the rules on a 9h shift.

but then went on to give an example of a 9 hour day :confused: either way the statement he disagreed with is correct, so maybe he got confused or maybe he had it wrong

42

Harsh! But yeah maybe I didn’t explain my reasoning correctly, let me try it this way.
(This isn’t fact, it’s just the way I’m seeing it, if I’m wrong, fair do’s I’ve learnt and I’ll apply it to my working day.)

If your working day is upto 9 hrs, just work, then you need a break totalling 30mins? Yeah? The first break of 15min must be taken before exceeding 6hrs, correct? Therefore the second 15min must be taken before end of shift, 9hr or working day?

Now the previous comment says 15 min before exceeding 6hrs then another 15min must be taken before exceeding another 6hr of work. That’s where I’m gettin mixed up and/or confused, which is it?

Rog understood where I was coming from.

43

wheelyb:
Harsh! But yeah maybe I didn’t explain my reasoning correctly, let me try it this way.
(This isn’t fact, it’s just the way I’m seeing it, if I’m wrong, fair do’s I’ve learnt and I’ll apply it to my working day.)

If your working day is upto 9 hrs, just work, then you need a break totalling 30mins? Yeah? The first break of 15min must be taken before exceeding 6hrs, correct? Therefore the second 15min must be taken before end of shift, 9hr or working day?

Now the previous comment says 15 min before exceeding 6hrs then another 15min must be taken before exceeding another 6hr of work. That’s where I’m gettin mixed up and/or confused, which is it?

Rog understood where I was coming from.

LEGAL Example of a shift where driving time did not exceed 4.5 hours so only RTD breaks required

Work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 2 hours
break 15 mins
work 1.25 hours
Total shift time = 15 hours
Total working time = 14.25 hours
Total break time = 45 mins

Alternatively the first 2 breaks could be say 22+23 mins and taken about the 5 and 10 hours point so as to split the shift in roughly 3 equal parts - that would also be ok

44

ROG:

wheelyb:
Harsh! But yeah maybe I didn’t explain my reasoning correctly, let me try it this way.
(This isn’t fact, it’s just the way I’m seeing it, if I’m wrong, fair do’s I’ve learnt and I’ll apply it to my working day.)

If your working day is upto 9 hrs, just work, then you need a break totalling 30mins? Yeah? The first break of 15min must be taken before exceeding 6hrs, correct? Therefore the second 15min must be taken before end of shift, 9hr or working day?

Now the previous comment says 15 min before exceeding 6hrs then another 15min must be taken before exceeding another 6hr of work. That’s where I’m gettin mixed up and/or confused, which is it?

Rog understood where I was coming from.

LEGAL Example of a shift where driving time did not exceed 4.5 hours so only RTD breaks required

Work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 2 hours
break 15 mins
work 1.25 hours
Total shift time = 15 hours
Total working time = 14.25 hours
Total break time = 45 mins

Alternatively the first 2 breaks could be say 22+23 mins and taken about the 5 and 10 hours point so as to split the shift in roughly 3 equal parts - that would also be ok

Ok Rog that’s clear but just to clear it up further, 6hr 15min 6hr, that’s 12hr work with only 15min break? Am I missing something?

45

wheelyb:
Harsh! But yeah maybe I didn’t explain my reasoning correctly, let me try it this way.
(This isn’t fact, it’s just the way I’m seeing it, if I’m wrong, fair do’s I’ve learnt and I’ll apply it to my working day.)

If your working day is upto 9 hrs, just work, then you need a break totalling 30mins? Yeah? The first break of 15min must be taken before exceeding 6hrs, correct? Therefore the second 15min must be taken before end of shift, 9hr or working day?

Now the previous comment says 15 min before exceeding 6hrs then another 15min must be taken before exceeding another 6hr of work. That’s where I’m gettin mixed up and/or confused, which is it?

I said in my earlier post -

Coffeeholic:
Next break is due before exceeding another 6 hours work from the end of that break or before the end of the shift, whichever comes first.

If you take a 15-minute break at 6 hours work and you were only going have a total of 9 hours work in the shift then you wouldn’t be doing another 6 hours work so the second 15-minute break would be before the end of the shift as that would come first as I said.

Similarly if you take a break at 6 hours work and you were only going have a total of 11 hours work in the shift you wouldn’t reach another 6 hours work so again you would require to take the remaining break before the end of the shift, either 2x15 or 1x30 minutes which could be as late as 10 hours 59 minutes from the first break, as that would come first as I said. Reaching 9 hours work does not trigger the second break in that situation.

If you take a 15-minute break at 6 hours work and you were going to be doing 13 hours work in the shift then the next break would be required no later than 6 hours from the end of the first break, because that would come first, before the end of the shift, as I said.

There is no situation where 9 hours work triggers a break. If you are doing exactly 9 hours work you would need the second 15 minute break before the 9 hours because you cannot take the break at the end of the shift so it would be 8:59 latest. If you took it at 9 hours you would need to show work after the break and that would mean at least 9:01 work, and you would need 30 minutes more break not 15.

46

wheelyb:
Ok Rog that’s clear but just to clear it up further, 6hr 15min 6hr, that’s 12hr work with only 15min break? Am I missing something?

That’s legal. The regulations say you must not work more than 6 hours without a break and in ROG’s example at no point has more than 6 hours been done without a break. There is also the correct total amount of break, 45 minutes, for a shift of over 9 hours work.

47

Okay I admit I’m not the brightest penny in the pile, but I thought I had this 6 hour rule sussed until I read this post, now I’m confused again.
I thought wheelyb was correct and this is why.

work 6
break 15
work six total work so far 12 hours
break 15
work 2 total work so far 14 hours
break 15
work 1.25? total work so far 15. 25
How is this legal, that only leaves you with 8.45 minutes rest within your 24 hours. Rog I assume by 1.25 you mean 1 hour fifteen minutes.
Now my understanding of the WTD is, before 6 hours duty expires you must take a minimum of 15 minutes break. If you work more than 6 hours but no more than 9 you must have another 15 minutes break giving you a total of 30 minutes. if you work more than 9 but not more 12 you must have another 15 minutes giving a total of 45 minutes break.
By the above example you work 12 hours with only 30 minutes break

I sometimes wonder what is at fault here, the rules and regulations or the English language.

48

knight2:
How is this legal, that only leaves you with 8.45 minutes rest within your 24 hours. Rog I assume by 1.25 you mean 1 hour fifteen minutes.
Now my understanding of the WTD is, before 6 hours duty expires you must take a minimum of 15 minutes break. If you work more than 6 hours but no more than 9 you must have another 15 minutes break giving you a total of 30 minutes. if you work more than 9 but not more 12 you must have another 15 minutes giving a total of 45 minutes break.
By the above example you work 12 hours with only 30 minutes break

I sometimes wonder what is at fault here, the rules and regulations or the English language.

If it’s a single manned journey he’s got the maths wrong but then so have you, the shift in the example is 16 hours which on a single manned journey would leave only eight hours daily rest within the 24 hour period.
However it would be legal if it was a multi-manned shift, which is probably what it was :smiley: :wink:

If the total shift is more than 12 hours and you don’t do 4½ driving, and you don’t do more than six hours working time without a break, it’s perfectly legal to work 12 hours with only 30 minutes break.

49

knight2:
I sometimes wonder what is at fault here, the rules and regulations or the English language.

Or is the fault with people reading the regulations and applying two rules which are either or rules to the same shift.

It’s:

30 minutes total break for between 6 and 9 hours of work

OR

45 minutes total break for over 9 hours work

You don’t aplly both of those to the same shift; If you are doing more than 9 hours of work then you completely ignore the first of those two requirements and only apply the second. That coupled with the no more than 6 hours work without a break rule shows it would be perfectly legal to do 12 hours work with only 15 minutes break during those 12 hours, provided you had the remaining 30 minutes required before the end of the shift.

50

I disagree. I am reading VOSA’s a summary of Working time regulations for mobile workers which says

" Working between 6 and 9 hours per day requires breaks
totalling 30 minutes. If more that 9 hours is worked then
breaks must total 45 minutes. Breaks must be of at least 15
minutes duration. Break requirements under the Regulations,
are in addition to those under the EU drivers’ hours rules. "

I don’t see how that can be translated into 12 hours work with 15 minutes break.

51

knight2:
I disagree. I am reading VOSA’s a summary of Working time regulations for mobile workers which says

" Working between 6 and 9 hours per day requires breaks
totalling 30 minutes. If more that 9 hours is worked then
breaks must total 45 minutes. Breaks must be of at least 15
minutes duration. Break requirements under the Regulations,
are in addition to those under the EU drivers’ hours rules. "

I don’t see how that can be translated into 12 hours work with 15 minutes break.

You don’t see it because you are reading that and applying all of it to one shift. You don’t do that, you only apply the bit that is relevant to your shift. You also didn’t quote the important bit which says you must not exceed 6 hours work without a break.

That’s why you are not seeing it because you are missing important bits out and then not reading what you are quoting properly.

Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time

You only use this bit when your work totals between 6 and 9 hours. If you do less than 6 hours or more than 9 hours then this obviously doesn’t apply to you so you ignore it. Note it says ‘does not exceed nine hours’ so that’s the bit that tells you when you do exceed 9 hours it no longer applies

Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

Do more than 9 hours work then this is the bit that applies to your shift. So we know in this case you need a total of 45 minutes break for this shift, what other requirements are there which will apply?

Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.

This bit is applicable and it tells you that you could take those 45 minutes in 3 x15 minute breaks, you could also do it in two parts as long as they add up to 45 and are at least 15 minutes. What else applies?

No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break

This is the bit you missed out and it’s important as this is the section that allows 12 hours of work with just 15 minutes of break. It’s extreme and it’s not that sensible but it’s legal.

Example shift
Work 6 hours
Break 15 minutes
Work 6 Hours
Break 30 minutes.
Work 1 hour.
Start rest period.
(Only 4 hours of driving done in this shift)

Now go through those regulations and see if they have been met or apply.

No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break?
Yep, that has been met?

Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time
Doesn’t apply. The hours this applies to are clearly defined; only between 6 and 9 hours work, there is 13 hours of work in this shift and that exceeds 9 hours so this clearly does not apply.

Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

Met that requirement, this shift exceeds 9 hours work so this is relevant to us and we have complied with 45 minutes of break taken

Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
Done, one break of 15 minutes, one of 30 minutes.

Yes, there is 12 hours work with only 15 minutes of break interrupting it but all the break requirements for the WTD for mobile workers have been met so it is a legal shift.

52

First of all thanks for your time.
Second, that piece I put from VOSA’s website was cut and pasted there was nothing missed out.
and third I admit defeat, I think where I was going wrong was applying common sense, as you said it is not sensible but it is legal.
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

53

knight2:
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

Quote what I said and then point out what is wrong if you believe you are correct

Be careful though because I can guarantee that coffeeholic or tachograph would have done so already if that was the case

54

knight2:
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

If we are looking at the same post then the only thing wrong is his maths when he ended up with a 16 hour shift.

He might get nicked for insufficient daily rest but his compliance with the WTD Breaks is spot on.

55

knight2:
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

If you are referring to the post I’ve quoted bellow the only thing wrong is that he’s put the last work period as 1¼ hours instead of 15 minutes, that doesn’t alter the breaks in anyway and without the typo it would have been legal.

ROG:
Work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 6 hours
break 15 mins
work 2 hours
break 15 mins
work 1.25 hours
Total shift time = 15 hours
Total working time = 14.25 hours
Total break time = 45 mins

56

1.25 = one and a quarter hours but I can see it could be seen as one hour and 25 mins

57

Coffeeholic:

knight2:
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

If we are looking at the same post then the only thing wrong is his maths when he ended up with a 16 hour shift.

He might get nicked for insufficient daily rest but his compliance with the WTD Breaks is spot on.

Which 16 hour shift was that? - Now I see - it was that one - DOH!!!
I should have made the last bit 15 mins work

58

ROG:

Coffeeholic:

knight2:
My original argument was with ROG’s statement which I still think was wrong and misleading.

If we are looking at the same post then the only thing wrong is his maths when he ended up with a 16 hour shift.

He might get nicked for insufficient daily rest but his compliance with the WTD Breaks is spot on.

Which 16 hour shift was that? - Now I see - it was that one - DOH!!!
I should have made the last bit 15 mins work

That’s the one. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: Fifteen minutes or multi-manned it, both would work. :smiley:

59

ROG:
1.25 = one and a quarter hours but I can see it could be seen as one hour and 25 mins

I think the majority of people would read 1.25 as one and a quarter hours. One hour twenty-five minutes would usually be 1:25.

60

It was the 16 hour bit I meant. I least I managed to get one bit right even I was wrong about the rest :blush: