I have recieved this e-mail which gives the definitive speed for LGVs on a contraflowed DUAL carriageway - this is where, for example, a 2 lane each way dual is now one lane each way on one side of the central reserve and the traffic is seperated by plastic cones.
The info I was given from just about every police traffic officer on this issue has been that if the posted speed limit is 50 then it’s 40 for LGVs - this, however, refutes that info and gives the LEGAL definitive from the DfT lawyers who make the rules.
Bottom line - if the posted limit is 50 in such a situation then it is also 50 for LGVs.
Subject Dual carriageways I have finally received a legal view on that single/dual carriageway issue. The Department’s view is that the road continues to be a dual carriageway even when one side of that carriageway is, for whatever reason, not in operation. Speed limits applicable to dual carriageways therefore continue to be appropriate. Unless of course the traffic authority lowers the speed limit. The argument lies in the legal definition of a dual carriageway being a road “part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used…” The interpretation here is “to be used” not “is used” which suggests very strongly that the central reservation need only exist, it need not be fulfilling its function of separating traffic. Therefore, if one side of a dual carriageway is shut, the speed limits for dual carriageway apply until a traffic order is made reducing that limit. If a 60mph order is made; all vehicles should travel at 60mph, except HGVs over 7.5 tonnes as they are subject to a 50mph limit on dual carriageways. If a 50mph order is made; All drivers should stick to 50mph Obviously only a court may determine when a road is or is not a dual carriageway based on any evidence presented to it. The same applies to drivers exceeding speed limits. So, once a dual carriageway, always one! Jerry Jeremy Moore Chief Superintendent Police Liaison Officer DfT/HO Road Crime/ACPO
Delboytwo and I were looking into this as we have been given different info - this confirms the info that Delboytwo was given
ROG:
I have recieved this e-mail which gives the definitive speed for LGVs on a contraflowed DUAL carriageway - this is where, for example, a 2 lane each way dual is now one lane each way on one side of the central reserve and the traffic is seperated by plastic cones.
The info I was given from just about every police traffic officer on this issue has been that if the posted speed limit is 50 then it’s 40 for LGVs - this, however, refutes that info and gives the LEGAL definitive from the DfT lawyers who make the rules.
Bottom line - if the posted limit is 50 in such a situation then it is also 50 for LGVs.
Subject Dual carriageways I have finally received a legal view on that single/dual carriageway issue. The Department’s view is that the road continues to be a dual carriageway even when one side of that carriageway is, for whatever reason, not in operation. Speed limits applicable to dual carriageways therefore continue to be appropriate. Unless of course the traffic authority lowers the speed limit. The argument lies in the legal definition of a dual carriageway being a road “part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used…” The interpretation here is “to be used” not “is used” which suggests very strongly that the central reservation need only exist, it need not be fulfilling its function of separating traffic. Therefore, if one side of a dual carriageway is shut, the speed limits for dual carriageway apply until a traffic order is made reducing that limit. If a 60mph order is made; all vehicles should travel at 60mph, except HGVs over 7.5 tonnes as they are subject to a 50mph limit on dual carriageways. If a 50mph order is made; All drivers should stick to 50mph Obviously only a court may determine when a road is or is not a dual carriageway based on any evidence presented to it. The same applies to drivers exceeding speed limits. So, once a dual carriageway, always one! Jerry Jeremy Moore Chief Superintendent Police Liaison Officer DfT/HO Road Crime/ACPO
Delboytwo and I were looking into this as we have been given different info - this confirms the info that Delboytwo was given
But it would’nt be the first time that a solicitor has got it wrong and if it’s good enough for a traffic copper then it’s good enough for me until there’s been an actual test case because the prosecution can afford more solicitors to argue the case amongst themselves but it’s the judge who decides and if a solicitor is wrong then it’s the driver who takes the rap not the solicitor.But if it’s right maybe it also confirms the old ‘myth’ of tractor units fitted with a fifth wheel having to be driven on a class 1 licence when solo depending on the wording of the old HGV licence regs as I said.But the law in the end is common sense ( sometimes) and I reckon that ‘to be used’ and ‘being’ used may or may not be interpreted by a judge as the same things.It’s one of those where I would’nt want to bet my licence on what the coppers and the judge would decide.Just like that old HGV class 1/solo unit ‘myth’ it’s better to err on the side of caution than to get done on an arguable point of law.But if that’s right why bother reducing the national limit at all in a contraflow? because to all intents and purposes it’s still a dual carriageway.IF it’s right.
Carryfast:
…But if that’s right why bother reducing the national limit at all in a contraflow? because to all intents and purposes it’s still a dual carriageway.IF it’s right.
Safety of the workforce? Lessens the chance of a vehicle crossing the divider in the event of a collision at slower speed?
Carryfast:
…But if that’s right why bother reducing the national limit at all in a contraflow? because to all intents and purposes it’s still a dual carriageway.IF it’s right.
Safety of the workforce? Lessens the chance of a vehicle crossing the divider in the event of a collision at slower speed?
But in this case they would’nt have cut the limit at all for trucks and a loaded truck would have more chance of going through the armco at 50 than a car would at 70?.But if the barrier is’nt good enough to protect the workforce at the national limit it also would’nt be good enough to protect opposing traffic flows in normal use conditions?.
ROG:
I have recieved this e-mail which gives the definitive speed for LGVs on a contraflowed DUAL carriageway - this is where, for example, a 2 lane each way dual is now one lane each way on one side of the central reserve and the traffic is seperated by plastic cones.
The info I was given from just about every police traffic officer on this issue has been that if the posted speed limit is 50 then it’s 40 for LGVs - this, however, refutes that info and gives the LEGAL definitive from the DfT lawyers who make the rules.
Bottom line - if the posted limit is 50 in such a situation then it is also 50 for LGVs.
Subject Dual carriageways I have finally received a legal view on that single/dual carriageway issue. The Department’s view is that the road continues to be a dual carriageway even when one side of that carriageway is, for whatever reason, not in operation. Speed limits applicable to dual carriageways therefore continue to be appropriate. Unless of course the traffic authority lowers the speed limit. The argument lies in the legal definition of a dual carriageway being a road “part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used…” The interpretation here is “to be used” not “is used” which suggests very strongly that the central reservation need only exist, it need not be fulfilling its function of separating traffic. Therefore, if one side of a dual carriageway is shut, the speed limits for dual carriageway apply until a traffic order is made reducing that limit. If a 60mph order is made; all vehicles should travel at 60mph, except HGVs over 7.5 tonnes as they are subject to a 50mph limit on dual carriageways. If a 50mph order is made; All drivers should stick to 50mph Obviously only a court may determine when a road is or is not a dual carriageway based on any evidence presented to it. The same applies to drivers exceeding speed limits. So, once a dual carriageway, always one! Jerry Jeremy Moore Chief Superintendent Police Liaison Officer DfT/HO Road Crime/ACPO
Delboytwo and I were looking into this as we have been given different info - this confirms the info that Delboytwo was given
Unfortunately i believe that the bit i have highlighted in bold is the get out for the Chief Super. Basically he is saying that although the dept may have that opinion if a court were to decide otherwise then so be it. This leaves the door wide open for drivers to be prosecuted and for the courts to decide once and for all.
Of course, it may be that no Police force or the CPS would wish to pursue what would become a test case because if they lost…the consequences could be significant. How many trucks have been done in these circumstances?
How many drivers have just paid up without arguing?
So if they think its safe for hgv’s to legally do 50 on what in essence is a single carriageway road,why not lift the 40mph limit on most single carriageway roads ?. ie (A) trunk roads .
scotty1972:
So if they think its safe for hgv’s to legally do 50 on what in essence is a single carriageway road,why not lift the 40mph limit on most single carriageway roads ?. ie (A) trunk roads .
I’ll guess that signing, indicating or describing what ‘single carriageway roads’ a truck could do more than 40 mph on would be the first stumbling block. You try wording it?
scotty1972:
So if they think its safe for hgv’s to legally do 50 on what in essence is a single carriageway road,why not lift the 40mph limit on most single carriageway roads ?. ie (A) trunk roads .
I’ll guess that signing, indicating or describing what ‘single carriageway roads’ a truck could do more than 40 mph on would be the first stumbling block. You try wording it?
I see what your saying,but take for example the A 17 from newark to kingslynn there is only about 3-4 places on that whole stretch that i would think it unsafe to do more than 40(barring already signed stretches). If these(unsafe) areas were signed 40 mph for hgv i think most drivers would stick to the limit,as they know they would be able to travel faster on the straighter,wider parts of the road ,instead of being governed by law to 40 no matter how safe it would be to travel faster.
Other examples of this
A69HEXHAM TO GREENHEAD
A1 ALNWICK TO BERWICK
MOST OF THE A9
A16 BOSTON TO SPALDING
ECT ECT.
An interesting answer from the ACPO Liason officer. However if I come across a coned off dual carriageway and you are following me, don’t get too stressed If I drop down to 40mph, I will only delay you a few moments and there is no need to give me the coffee shaker
For anyone who has driven in Germany you will know that when they make a contraflow, they measure them to exacting dimensions. Traffic still flows well, just a few km’s slower
scotty1972:
So if they think its safe for hgv’s to legally do 50 on what in essence is a single carriageway road,why not lift the 40mph limit on most single carriageway roads ?. ie (A) trunk roads .
I’ll guess that signing, indicating or describing what ‘single carriageway roads’ a truck could do more than 40 mph on would be the first stumbling block. You try wording it?
I see what your saying,but take for example the A 17 from newark to kingslynn there is only about 3-4 places on that whole stretch that i would think it unsafe to do more than 40(barring already signed stretches). If these(unsafe) areas were signed 40 mph for hgv i think most drivers would stick to the limit,as they know they would be able to travel faster on the straighter,wider parts of the road ,instead of being governed by law to 40 no matter how safe it would be to travel faster.
Other examples of this
A69HEXHAM TO GREENHEAD
A1 ALNWICK TO BERWICK
MOST OF THE A9
A16 BOSTON TO SPALDING
ECT ECT.
I allways thought that they could raise the limit on A trunk roads, which tend to be more suitable, as opposed to all A roads. Only draw back here is that many roads that are’nt A trunk, such as the A17 would be suitanle. Scotty you mention 3-4 places that arent suitable for lgv 50mph on the A17, these places allready have a built in solution, they are 50mph or lower restricted to other traffic, at these point lgv’s would return to 40mph or lower as the signage dictated. Good thats sorted what else
I’m glad this thread came up. I was driving down the A3 throught he Hindhead works on a saturday morning a few weeks back, and on the bit where it’s dual carriageway contraflow because one of the carriageways isn’t yet completed just south of Hindhead, I realised when I passed under the last average speed camera that I’d been doing 45-50mph all the way through. Oops, I thought. Must have had a bit of a brain ■■■■! I would have probably gone through at 40mph if I hadn’t been daydreaming, but I didn’t consider it to be unsafe at 50mph as the traffic conditions were light and the lanes were fairly wide. I was expecting a fine to come through but thus far, it hasn’t appeared. So either the temporary average speed cameras can’t distinguish between HGVs and cars and only cares about the speed measurement from point to point (50mph limit), or I didn’t actually do anything wrong after all.
I did consider that I might have been in the right because I’ve heard before that contraflow dual carriageways don’t hold the same rules as single carriageways. However, just to mud the waters a little more, the carriageway which wasn’t open to the traffic has so far never actually been open to traffic because it’s newly built road, so perhaps my situation can’t be considereed to be a contraflow situation at all, because it’s not a temporary contraflow from something that originally was a dual carriageway? Also, the seperation between the opposite traffic flows on my carriageway wasn’t designed to prevent vehicles crossing at all, they were just cones which are bolted down to the tarmac. I wonder how my situation would be looked at in court if I did actually receive a fine?
Off topic but…
Regards raising the single carriageway national speed limit for HGV’s, I think it’s impossible to say that any particular road is okay for 50mph, but my view is that certain sections on roads should definately be considered for this (or just take away the commission-based fining system we’ve got in the UK and allow professional drivers to use good judgement). Like near where I live, the A507 from the A1 to Shefford - lovely wide, modern road. The only crashes have been because of people doing crap overtakes, so why frustrate and encourage inexperienced or crap car drivers to do overtakes by driving your HGV unnecesarrily slowly for the road conditions? I recently witnessed situation which very nearly ended in a serious, if not fatal accident where a young lady in a small peugeot in travelling in front of me overtook a tesco lorry which was doing 40mph. She was far too close to the back of the lorry and was ducking in and out for a couple of miles previously looking to overtake and suddenly applying brakes etc. I saw what she was up to so I hung right back from her. She went for the overtake, completely misjusdged the oncoming van and her vehicles performance to the point where the oncoming van ended up locking up his brakes in his attempt to avoid her, and she swerved back in, virtually on two wheels. A collision was avoided by inches.
This is the situation what kills a lot of crap and impatient drivers, but the girl probably wouldn’t have bothered looking for an overtake in the first place if Mr. Tesco hadn’t been doing 40mph on a road where it would have been perfectly safe for him to do 50. Of course, I can’t blame the tesco driver at all, he’s following the rules quite correctly and probably has some device in his cab which helps his boss relieve him of a job if it dares to think for himself on the open road. The young lady was entirely at fault for the crap overtake, but how many young drivers are actually taught to overtake on single carriage roads safely? They’re not even taught how to drive on the motorway FFS. So until car driver training is radically reformed, we need to stop tempting crap drivers to carry out risky manouevres where it’s not safe. When I’ve got a queue of cars behind me on a single carriageway which is straight, good visibility and no junctions I will ease back to the 40mph mark so cars can pass me safely and easily. But where it’s not safe for people to overtake me but it’s still safe enough for an HGV to travel at more than 40mph on a S/C road, I will use my own brain to judge what speed is best - not an outdated, ■■■■■■■■■■■ one-size-fits-all law.
how many young drivers are actually taught to overtake on single carriage roads safely?
Theory of it - many
Practically doing it - virtually none
solution - staged L testing so those with slightly more experience can be taught how to do it physically but that will only happen when the Govt put road safety above votes - so never
ROG:
I have recieved this e-mail which gives the definitive speed for LGVs on a contraflowed DUAL carriageway - this is where, for example, a 2 lane each way dual is now one lane each way on one side of the central reserve and the traffic is seperated by plastic cones.
The info I was given from just about every police traffic officer on this issue has been that if the posted speed limit is 50 then it’s 40 for LGVs - this, however, refutes that info and gives the LEGAL definitive from the DfT lawyers who make the rules.
Bottom line - if the posted limit is 50 in such a situation then it is also 50 for LGVs.
Subject Dual carriageways I have finally received a legal view on that single/dual carriageway issue. The Department’s view is that the road continues to be a dual carriageway even when one side of that carriageway is, for whatever reason, not in operation. Speed limits applicable to dual carriageways therefore continue to be appropriate. Unless of course the traffic authority lowers the speed limit. The argument lies in the legal definition of a dual carriageway being a road “part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used…” The interpretation here is “to be used” not “is used” which suggests very strongly that the central reservation need only exist, it need not be fulfilling its function of separating traffic. Therefore, if one side of a dual carriageway is shut, the speed limits for dual carriageway apply until a traffic order is made reducing that limit. If a 60mph order is made; all vehicles should travel at 60mph, except HGVs over 7.5 tonnes as they are subject to a 50mph limit on dual carriageways. If a 50mph order is made; All drivers should stick to 50mph Obviously only a court may determine when a road is or is not a dual carriageway based on any evidence presented to it. The same applies to drivers exceeding speed limits. So, once a dual carriageway, always one! Jerry Jeremy Moore Chief Superintendent Police Liaison Officer DfT/HO Road Crime/ACPO
Delboytwo and I were looking into this as we have been given different info - this confirms the info that Delboytwo was given
There has for a long time been great debate around here as to whether a barrier is required for a road to become a duel carriageway and this seems to be saying that it is needed. your comments please.
dessert driver:
There has for a long time been great debate around here as to whether a barrier is required for a road to become a duel carriageway and this seems to be saying that it is needed. your comments please.
Regards Keith.
Depends what you mean by a barrier? It has never been the case that there must be a barrier in the sense of armco or a concrete wall, there only has to be physical separation of the carriageways and a strip of grass or gravel will do that but painted lines will not.
would be suitanle. Scotty you mention 3-4 places that arent suitable for lgv 50mph on the A17, these places allready have a built in solution, they are 50mph or lower restricted to other traffic, at these point lgv’s would return to 40mph or lower as the signage dictated. Good thats sorted what else 
