"Additional rights for agency workers" after 12 weeks..?

Is this “law” mandatory for agencies/companies that use agencies? This part in particular is relevant to my interests: "after 12 weeks in the same job, you are entitled to the same basic pay and working conditions as permanent employees, unless you are working under a pay between assignments contract "

I’ve completed 2 such 12+ week periods with teh same agency and 2 different companies (clients) but no one ever told me my pay would go up (or down) after the 12 weeks were up, things remained the same. Am I supposed to go to the agency or the client and sort of, remind them that the 12 weeks are up? Are they under any obligation to disclose to me the hourly pay rate of their employees which I am now apparently entitled to receive? Apparently after 12 weeks as an agency worker you’re also entitled to the same overtime rates as their full time employees and the same number of paid holidays as them. Main question is, how does one go about…discussing these things with the agency or client without coming across as over-entitled (which I imagine would result in a swift assignment termination).

Anyone share a personal experience rather than theories?

I can pretty much guarantee your agency is using the Swedish Derogation of the AWR so they don’t have to and can keep the prices low. I’ve never come across an agency who doesn’t. Under the derogation as long as they pay you a minimal amount when there’s a week with no work (in my case 10hrs pay) then they don’t have to give you parity pay after 12 weeks. If there’s a week with no work and you refuse what they offer then they don’t even have to pay that.

The Swedish Derogation has cost me roughly £3-£4/hr for the past 4 years where I’m at, effectively costing me £15k a year if I was there 5 days a week every week.

Main question is, how does one go about…discussing these things with the agency or client without coming across as over-entitled (which I imagine would result in a swift assignment termination).

Don’t have any worries about upsetting their feelings. I’ve found discussing pay in a straight forward completely direct and blunt manner the best way because then there’s no fudging around, it does help if you have a full understanding of the laws around pay so you can point out chapter and verse. However as I said be prepared for them to come back with the Swedish Derogation response, it won’t be “we use the Swedish Derogation” because the muppets in the offices actually don’t know employment law and agency workers rights, they’ll just say something like “apparently we don’t have to because if there’s not any work we still pay you.” They don’t actually know why they pay you when there’s no work only that they were told they don’t have to do the 12 week thing if they do. They won’t terminate you because they can’t get enough drivers.

POINT TO NOTE:
On 17th December 2018 the UK government announced it was rescinding the derogation as well as altering how holiday pay is calculated to average the past 12 months, not 12 weeks as they decided it was unfair to seasonal workers using the 12 week rule. That means that come April 2020 once you’ve been there 12 weeks they have to give you parity pay and there’s no get out of jail free card they can use. I will expect no doubt that they’ll be able to reset the clock and count Week 1 in 2020 as the first week so even if you’ve been there 12 weeks before then it’ll be 12 weeks after the start of the new financial year before you get parity pay. Again given the shortage of drivers agencies have don’t be worried about them pulling you off and sending you somewhere else. Even if you have a break it doesn’t reset the clock on the 12 weeks unless its been a month or more.

I’ve found that in the 13th continuous week at the same client via agency - it is my undestanding that they (the client, not the agency) are obliged to offer you a job full time.
SOME firms then stand you down for 8 weeks - to get around this.
If you make noises that you are “Not interested in going full time” though - then there’s no need to stand you down 8 weeks after every 12 continuous working there.

You can also opt out of this “compulsory pension” crap they put you into automatically, where you can expect to pay in for 2-3 years before expecing much “pension benefits” back.

I’ve already got two paid up pensions, so don’t want to be paying 2-3 years further into a third which’ll be some crappy “defined contributions” rubbish, now that all the decent “defined benefits” pensions have long-since been closed down to new members…

Not sure how the “Parity Pay” thing works - when going Full Time is then a pay CUT compared to staying on as agency…

Doesn’t Stobarts (A place I’ve never worked) do it like this?

Winseer:
I’ve found that in the 13th continuous week at the same client via agency - it is my undestanding that they (the client, not the agency) are obliged to offer you a job full time.

You understand wrong. There IS a temp to perm where agencies will state that if a company wants to take a client on then they either pay 13 weeks as commission or they have the worker there 13 weeks.

You can also opt out of this “compulsory pension” crap they put you into automatically, where you can expect to pay in for 2-3 years before expecing much “pension benefits” back.

Only a dumbass would opt out of a pension, literally you have to be a full on drooling ■■■■■■ to opt out of a workplace pension. You’re literally demanding to get paid less and demanding to be poorer when you retire. Anyone who tells you to opt out of a workplace pension is the last person you should ever ask for financial advice, so stupid is what they’re telling you.

I’m currently paying in around £20 a week, my employer adds £12. Because it comes out of pre-tax pay it literally costs me £16 out of my take home pay to put £32 in my pension. Even if I’m only doing it for 3 years for a sum total of £4996 of which only £2496 is out of my pocket out of my take home pay and it sits there until I retire then that’s an additional £13,245 I’ll have in retirement when I retire in 20 years time if it grows at 5% average per year, £13k I’d not have if I followed Winseer’s advice. Anyone else think that getting £13,245 for £2496 out of their pocket a bad deal?

Conor:
I can pretty much guarantee your agency is using the Swedish Derogation of the AWR so they don’t have to and can keep the prices low. I’ve never come across an agency who doesn’t. Under the derogation as long as they pay you a minimal amount when there’s a week with no work (in my case 10hrs pay) then they don’t have to give you parity pay after 12 weeks. If there’s a week with no work and you refuse what they offer then they don’t even have to pay that.

No, they don’t pay me full days when there’s no work. I only get paid if I work, slight exception is if I work less than 8 hours they still pay me 8 hrs, that’s it. I don’t get compensation if a shift is cancelled same day by client for example or there’s no work that week. This is what I’ve found:

"You may be asked to sign a pay between assignments contract with your agency. This means you are an employee of the agency and your rights are slightly different to other agency workers.

If you’re on a pay between assignments contract, the agency will pay you if you end one job and have to wait before starting a new one. It also means that you will not be entitled to the same pay as other employees where you’re sent to work, even when you have worked for more than 12 weeks in the same job for the same employer. Your other employment rights are the same,"

Regarding pensions, let’s not forget taht private pension funds tend to go belly up unexpectedly, wiping out ppl’s “savings”, recent example Carillion and their pension scheme. If I was near retirement I’d probably go for it but I have 0 faith that 30-35 years from now “my money” will still be there for me. If anything, the gov’t will be so broke by then they will be taxing pensions heavily.

Conor:

Winseer:
I’ve found that in the 13th continuous week at the same client via agency - it is my undestanding that they (the client, not the agency) are obliged to offer you a job full time.

You understand wrong. There IS a temp to perm where agencies will state that if a company wants to take a client on then they either pay 13 weeks as commission or they have the worker there 13 weeks.

You can also opt out of this “compulsory pension” crap they put you into automatically, where you can expect to pay in for 2-3 years before expecing much “pension benefits” back.

Only a dumbass would opt out of a pension, literally you have to be a full on drooling ■■■■■■ to opt out of a workplace pension. You’re literally demanding to get paid less and demanding to be poorer when you retire. Anyone who tells you to opt out of a workplace pension is the last person you should ever ask for financial advice, so stupid is what they’re telling you.

I’m currently paying in around £20 a week, my employer adds £12. Because it comes out of pre-tax pay it literally costs me £16 out of my take home pay to put £32 in my pension. Even if I’m only doing it for 3 years for a sum total of £4996 of which only £2496 is out of my pocket out of my take home pay and it sits there until I retire then that’s an additional £13,245 I’ll have in retirement when I retire in 20 years time if it grows at 5% average per year, £13k I’d not have if I followed Winseer’s advice. Anyone else think that getting £13,245 for £2496 out of their pocket a bad deal?

I’ve DONE temp to perm, so get what you say.

I thought we were talking about actually just being offered a job after 13 weeks… .What hoops one has to jump through to fulfil any contracts - is besides the point.

THere are too many firms in my mind that’ll just stand people down on agency for 8 weeks - because the client has no INTENTION of offering a full time job - and the agency knows this, but refuses to be honest about their client’s clear “running around any rules” here.
What good are “Rules” if the ordinary worker is in the crap when THEY break them, but managers/bosses can get around them with impunity by simple lies and deceit all the time?

Agencies - already have a reputation somewhere between Estate Agents and Sediq Khaan - but too little vitriol is meted out for the CLIENTS in my reckoning - who often bully those same agencies into acting nastily towards their drivers, even their CORE drivers.

ETS:

Conor:
I can pretty much guarantee your agency is using the Swedish Derogation of the AWR so they don’t have to and can keep the prices low. I’ve never come across an agency who doesn’t. Under the derogation as long as they pay you a minimal amount when there’s a week with no work (in my case 10hrs pay) then they don’t have to give you parity pay after 12 weeks. If there’s a week with no work and you refuse what they offer then they don’t even have to pay that.

No, they don’t pay me full days when there’s no work. I only get paid if I work, slight exception is if I work less than 8 hours they still pay me 8 hrs, that’s it. I don’t get compensation if a shift is cancelled same day by client for example or there’s no work that week. This is what I’ve found:

"You may be asked to sign a pay between assignments contract with your agency. This means you are an employee of the agency and your rights are slightly different to other agency workers.

If you’re on a pay between assignments contract, the agency will pay you if you end one job and have to wait before starting a new one. It also means that you will not be entitled to the same pay as other employees where you’re sent to work, even when you have worked for more than 12 weeks in the same job for the same employer. Your other employment rights are the same,"

Regarding pensions, let’s not forget taht private pension funds tend to go belly up unexpectedly, wiping out ppl’s “savings”, recent example Carillion and their pension scheme. If I was near retirement I’d probably go for it but I have 0 faith that 30-35 years from now “my money” will still be there for me. If anything, the gov’t will be so broke by then they will be taxing pensions heavily.

Have to agree with you there. I suspect that people’s pensions due in 15-20 years time are ALREADY looted to such an extent - that it will be a HUGE scandal should sufficient numbers of our age group - come to retire on what they though would at LEAST amount to “what they paid in” - only to fund that the combined actions of “Churn and Burn” pension fund managers coupled with Government thieving - has reduced many a pot to a fraction of what people paid in over 20+ years. NOT good enough, frankly - and these suits behind such shenanigans - should be serving jail time, IF they are still alive to be put in the dock, of course.

How easy it is for our current show of politicians and financial industry suits - to Promise us forever “Jam Tomorrow” deals, loot us NOW, and then keep quiet about it for a generation, hoping that we’ll all be dead before we noticed we’ve been robbed.

Conor:

Winseer:
I’ve found that in the 13th continuous week at the same client via agency - it is my undestanding that they (the client, not the agency) are obliged to offer you a job full time.

You understand wrong. There IS a temp to perm where agencies will state that if a company wants to take a client on then they either pay 13 weeks as commission or they have the worker there 13 weeks.

You can also opt out of this “compulsory pension” crap they put you into automatically, where you can expect to pay in for 2-3 years before expecing much “pension benefits” back.

Only a dumbass would opt out of a pension, literally you have to be a full on drooling ■■■■■■ to opt out of a workplace pension. You’re literally demanding to get paid less and demanding to be poorer when you retire. Anyone who tells you to opt out of a workplace pension is the last person you should ever ask for financial advice, so stupid is what they’re telling you.

I’m currently paying in around £20 a week, my employer adds £12. Because it comes out of pre-tax pay it literally costs me £16 out of my take home pay to put £32 in my pension. Even if I’m only doing it for 3 years for a sum total of £4996 of which only £2496 is out of my pocket out of my take home pay and it sits there until I retire then that’s an additional £13,245 I’ll have in retirement when I retire in 20 years time if it grows at 5% average per year, £13k I’d not have if I followed Winseer’s advice. Anyone else think that getting £13,245 for £2496 out of their pocket a bad deal?

I’d agree with you - if we were talking about “Defined Benefits” pensions, of which there are precious few left, and NONE as far as I am aware - signing up new members now.

Today’s crappy pensions though - involve the first 2-3 years of contributions paying front-loaded commissions, and you really need to be paying in for around 10-12 years just to have a good chance of breaking even on what you’ve paid in by that point.

Even the names of these pensions - are very mickey-mouse sounding, with no offices to visit, money taken BEFORE you’ve consented or signed anything, and NO transparancy on where that money goes…

“Nest Pensions”, or “NOW Pensions” or “CARE Pensions” - are all the same to me. Con Outfits taking advantage of this government legislation that makes it compulsory for employers to offer such a plan to staff after a number of weeks of working there. Well, I’d rather have my £28/week worth of deductions back in my own pocket, thanks - especially as it seems my “employer” isn’t paying in half themselves, AND I’m not getting any tax relief on these “contributions”. Indeed, the £28 looks more like a “Salary Sacrifice” deduction!

In any case, I’ve already got two paid-up pensions, and I’m also likely to be working until I’m 70 - so WTF do I need a third Front-loaded Commission-heavy “investment of wealth destruction” pension for at MY age, less than 20 years from even a “kicked-down-the-road” retirement as I envisage for myself?

I’ve not opted out of my “final salary” pension. It is just “paid up”, and will NOT be “cashed in early” - because as you said - Only a ■■■■■■ would act thus…

I did 23 years at Royal Mail, and the “Old” pension there - was perfectly good to KEEP - not ditch for a handful of beans because some spiv told me I could turn it into cash to pay my credit cards off… (F… that. There’s no need to take good money and spend it on bad debt - ever) George Osbourne’s legislation - also allows fresh credit defaulters - to have their pensions looted, but ONLY if the punter cashes it in FIRST. DON’T DO IT! If you’re skint - you STAY skint! A Final Salary Pension is the ONLY form of “Jam Tomorrow” finance that is actually representing a good deal for the Worker!

Put it this way - £20 weekly is £1000 / year or a nice 2 week holiday NOW. I’ll take a 2 weeks holiday now while I’m 35 over a promise of 2 months holiday when I reach 70.

Conor have you got a link for the 12 month holiday pay average thing?

My lot only changed to average 12 week after I threatened them with court so I feel another email to HR may be required

Conor:
Only a dumbass would opt out of a pension, literally you have to be a full on drooling ■■■■■■ to opt out of a workplace pension. You’re literally demanding to get paid less and demanding to be poorer when you retire. Anyone who tells you to opt out of a workplace pension is the last person you should ever ask for financial advice, so stupid is what they’re telling you.

I’m currently paying in around £20 a week, my employer adds £12. Because it comes out of pre-tax pay it literally costs me £16 out of my take home pay to put £32 in my pension. Even if I’m only doing it for 3 years for a sum total of £4996 of which only £2496 is out of my pocket out of my take home pay and it sits there until I retire then that’s an additional £13,245 I’ll have in retirement when I retire in 20 years time if it grows at 5% average per year, £13k I’d not have if I followed Winseer’s advice. Anyone else think that getting £13,245 for £2496 out of their pocket a bad deal?

Here’s a clue.There’s a big difference between your pension ‘FUND’.As opposed to the rate at which the ‘Annuity’,which that ‘fund’ buys you,pays out.The whole scam being based on a figure at which they know the holder will probably die before they’ve paid out everything in the ‘fund’.At which point they pocket all the difference of what’s left.So exactly how much do you think that your extra £13,000 will provide bearing in mind that a fund of around £100,000 provides less than £4,000 pa pension which means you have to live until you’re 90 just to get your money back.Let alone the effect of inflation on that pension over the period.Although feel free to request a guaranteed payout of the fund if you die before that and inflation linking in which case forget all about the £4,000 pa.

On that note I long ago cancelled all my private pension contributions but too late with many thousands in the fund.Which now pay out at the massive rate of around £ 300 pa and at which I know it will be a miracle if I ever live long enough to see what I paid in returned let alone all the interest owing over that period.

In which case what I call retarded is contributing to a pension,which no one will likely see returned to them,let alone with interest.While at the same time effectively paying more in mortgage interest to pay for the privilege.Such as in my case having given the cash which I gave to the zb bankers for a worthless pension,to my parents instead to help clear their mortgage faster.

IE pay off the mortgage and forget all about being ripped off to pay for a non existent pension which is effectively just a tax on the naive for the benefit of the bankers.In a game which is all in their favour.Just like mug punter gamblers never beat the bookies or the house in the long term.

Carryfast:
Here’s a clue…

The biggest clue is that the gov’t was/is fiercely promoting/endorsing the whole thing

ETS:
Regarding pensions, let’s not forget taht private pension funds tend to go belly up unexpectedly, wiping out ppl’s “savings”, recent example Carillion and their pension scheme. If I was near retirement I’d probably go for it but I have 0 faith that 30-35 years from now “my money” will still be there for me. If anything, the gov’t will be so broke by then they will be taxing pensions heavily.

Pension funds are ring fenced and you have full protection under FSCS. Company pension schemes like Carillion are a different matter but ones like Nest, People’s Pension etc involve the pension fund holding stocks, shares and bonds from all over the world and those are ringfenced from the rest of the company so if the pension company goes belly up the core assets are still there and the Financial Services Ombudsman will appoint another company to take over the pensions, those stocks, shares and bonds being transferred over. Pensions are already taxed when you draw them down. The income from a pension is classed as taxable income taxed the same as income from wages.

It is also completely impossible for the UK government to be broke as we have a sovereign currency meaning we can simply print money if it came to it unlike countries like Greece who don’t have their own currency but use someone else’s, in their case the Euro.

Winseer:
Today’s crappy pensions though - involve the first 2-3 years of contributions paying front-loaded commissions, and you really need to be paying in for around 10-12 years just to have a good chance of breaking even on what you’ve paid in by that point.

You really have no idea what you’re talking about. There is no front loading of commissions. You can see what the charges are yourself. You’re charged an annual management fee which is a percentage of the amount in your pot - 1% being ridiculously expensive. I have no idea what mental gymnastics you’re using to come to the conclusion that you need to be paying in for 10-12 years just to break even. I’ll post the figures from my People’s Pension account later on today when the website is back up from overnight maintenance.

Carryfast:
Here’s a clue.There’s a big difference between your pension ‘FUND’.As opposed to the rate at which the ‘Annuity’,which that ‘fund’ buys you,pays out.The whole scam being based on a figure at which they know the holder will probably die before they’ve paid out everything in the ‘fund’.

Am I the only one with a clue about how pensions work? Christ you’ve just posted a whole load of typical RDC waiting room ■■■■■■■■. You do know you don’t have to have an annuity and can do draw down? Unlike an annuity where you basically purchase a policy promising to pay out £x until the day you die, when you do draw down you can choose to take 25% of it tax free as a lump sum and from then on just decide how much you’re going to take out of your pot that year and leave the rest in there. When you die what is left gets passed on to your estate.

Before anyone else posts that its all a rip off may I suggest going and doing some actual ■■■■■■ research about pensions before making yourself look a pillock?

READ EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THIS ENTIRE ARTICLE, ALL THE LINKS, ALL THE SECTIONS and then you won’t look like these two.

moneysavingexpert.com/savin … -pensions/

toonsy:
Conor have you got a link for the 12 month holiday pay average thing?

My lot only changed to average 12 week after I threatened them with court so I feel another email to HR may be required

gov.uk/government/news/larg … businesses

The 52 week thing has not come into effect yet but at least you know from the above what is on its way. April 6th 2020 is when I believe it applies from.

Pensions
Follow the link to moneysavingexpert that Conor put up.
Research who MSE are.
Realise that we have a population who are living longer. The working population won’t be paying the pensions of those in retirement.
Save up for Your retirement, Yourself.
The Gov won’t be able to do anything apart from very basis schemes in the future. Workplace schemes may not be at good as those civil service obes from the sixties, but they are worthwhile.
.
PS.
A good indicator for a long life is a healthy bank balance. Poor people die younger. Get a good pension set up, relax and enjoy retirement.

Franglais:
Pensions
Follow the link to moneysavingexpert that Conor put up.
Research who MSE are.
Realise that we have a population who are living longer. The working population won’t be paying the pensions of those in retirement.
Save up for Your retirement, Yourself.
The Gov won’t be able to do anything apart from very basis schemes in the future. Workplace schemes may not be at good as those civil service obes from the sixties, but they are worthwhile.
.
PS.
A good indicator for a long life is a healthy bank balance. Poor people die younger. Get a good pension set up, relax and enjoy retirement.

Poor people die younger ■■ I best start saying my goodbyes then

In law yes.
Going back a few years I was working for an agency.
Was working for a pallet line place. Same route postcode area same collections ever day.
After 11 weeks was told works not there anymore I’m not needed.
Then was offered work someware else.
There always find a way around things.