Very strange market for long term commitment at present. Now clearstone have gone and rollright has been bought buy existing management we are considering all options - Rollright training solutions is to be run as a family business once again. - something good has come from the closure of clearstone…
ROG:
It has been mentioned that there seem to be inconsistencies on parts of the LGV, B+E & PCV tests.
Getting out to have a look when backing into the reversing box is one of them and if doing so should the engine be on or off is another.
Signalling to exit mini roundabouts also comes to mind as well as scuffing a kerb as opposed to hitting one which makes the vehicle rock.
Are there any more variations that we could discuss and perhaps compose an e-mail to the DSA for some definitive answers
Come on Instructors, lets have some feedback on this so I can put together a comprehensive set of e-mail questions for the DSA policy bods 
What I got so far - my english grammer not that good so if this can be put better please do so 
It has come to the attention of various instructors around the UK that there are various test inconsistencies to which we would like some definitive answers please.
Below is a link to the forum where some of them have been discussed.
trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29099
The questions are:-
1. Are all candidates on non B tests allowed to exit their vehicle when they initially stop in the ‘garage’ to go and take a ‘FREE’ look. once, at where the rear of their vehicle is and to put right with one more reverse move if necessary?
2. If yes to Q1, does the engine have to be switched off and the keys removed?
3. Does an ‘EXIT’ signal have to be given at a mini roundabout? (most seem to find that the front wheels reach the exit point about the same time when a signal is being sought !!!)
4. Does the ‘Scuffing’ or ‘rubbing’ of a kerb where it does not effect any adverse movement of the vehicle warrant a minor or serious on the examiners’ sheet?
5. What constitutes “pulling out” on a vehicle at a roundabout? I have heard different examiners say that they dont mind if the extreme rear of a vehicle slows an oncoming vehicle down, whereas some do.
6. Are you ok to touch the barrier on the reverse exercise?
7. Abandoned tests on a route where the examiner has to stop the trainee driving. What exactly can an examiner do or not do in such circumstances?
Drive the lorry back? Abandon it and leave the trainee with the keys?
8.
As instructors, what do we think of this
The Young LGV Driver Scheme is managed by Skills for Logistics on behalf of the Department for Transport and will be scrapped when the driver cpc comes into force as the driver cpc allows for 18 year olds to do LGV.
skillsforlogistics.org/en/ja … /faqs/#nvq
Under CPC rules, can an 18 year old drive a full sized lorry?
Yes, under the new regulations a person of 18 can acquire a category C (followed by a Category C+E) licence as long as they also acquire the initial Driver CPC.
-
What constitutes “pulling out” on a vehicle at a roundabout? I have heard different examiners say that they dont mind if the extreme rear of a vehicle slows an oncoming vehicle down, whereas some do.
-
Are you ok to touch the barrier on the reverse exercise?
Also I dont think the DSA register is worth anything, I have been an instructor for just over 4 years, and my dad was doing it for over 20, and neither of us was registered. IMHO all we as instructors are doing is trying to get people through what is basically a “fixed” test by telling them what to do parrot fashion, by sticking to set routes and getting them to remember the bad areas. If we knew exactly which route they were going to get come test day we would just concentrate on that one particular route. I know its cliched but they learn to drive after they have passed their test , and we just hope that they remember one or two pointers that we have given them to stay safe once on their own.
Anyway back to my original point, with not being registered, it never affected my pass rates, or how much work I got, after all you can only work with what youve got. An instructor with a 100% pass rate could not get someone through who wasnt cut out for the job.
Until it was compulsary I would not bother with it at all. 
bugcos:
6. Are you ok to touch the barrier on the reverse exercise?
IIRC, the original spiel about the barrier was that you could touch it but not knock it over. However. What doesn’t seem to have been considered (at the time) was the weight of the barrier and the H&S considerations of picking it up again. Hence the examiner will intervene before it topples = fail.
Going back to the point made by ROG regarding ‘quitting’, the DSA, being Civil Servants, excuse me whilst I spit 
, tend to interpret matters of Law through rose tinted blinkers.
Hence
Reg 107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set, unless exempted by paragraph (2).
From which, two points immediately spring to mind. A Test Centre is not a road. They invariably have signs warning that it is private property.
The second is on the point of ‘shall leave’. If the legislation had meant it to interpretted as ‘exiting from the vehicle’, then it would have said so. Plain and simple. “Leaving” in this context, relates to ‘moving away from’, ‘abandoning’, ‘foregoing control’. None of which apply when checking the rearmost position. The driver is still in close proximity of the vehicle and ready to immediately retake control of the operating systems. How else would a ‘mixer’ driver be able to deliver his load?
It’s a bit like Litter. You can deposit as much litter in a public place as you like, providing you don’t leave it there. Hence, you are walking up the road to a paper shop smoking a ■■■, but the nearest bin is in the direction where you ultimately intend to travel, but beyond the shop. So you stub it out on the footpath before entering the shop. The offence is only completed when you ‘leave’ it. Emerging from the shop, if you then pick it up and toss it in the nearest bin as you pass, then no offence has been committed, unless, someone was to maintain that it led to a defacement of that place during that time contraint, which would be unlikely.
Removing keys? Since when has it been a requirement that a vehicle require keys to start the vehicle. Whilst there are anti-theft Regulations regarding steering lock/gear lock requirements, I can’t think of anything that requires that a vehicle can only be started by the use of a key. So why would they need to be removed? After all, the driver, as previously argued, is still, in attendance at the vehicle.
Krankee:
HenceReg 107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set, unless exempted by paragraph (2).
From which, two points immediately spring to mind. A Test Centre is not a road. They invariably have signs warning that it is private property.
Now that’s where I seem to remember that there are two definitions of “road.”
- A road to which the public have access, and
- A road repairable at the public expense.
So that leads me to wonder which definition is in use for the quoted "Reg 107(1)?
I would have thought that a test center would meet both definitions, since it is accessible to the public AND it’s repairable at public expense. If the “private” signs have any legal validity, then who owns it? I also seem to remember that a “private” road should have gates that are closed on at least one day a year, so the teast center might well be able to achieve that.
Can you provide any clarity on that one Krankee, that kind of question has had me wondering for years.
As well as the cement mixer example you gave, there’s possibly a better example of a driver leaving an engine running. The driver delivers propane to a storage tank at the rear of isolated houses and must have the engine running, since propane is delivered by pump. The tanker almost always parks at the side of the road, so initially, the driver can switch off the engine whilst the hose is being connected to the tank. Once the hose is connected, the driver must run the engine and use the PTO to drive the pump. The driver is also legally required to be “in attendance,” and that’s taken to mean that both ends of the delivery hose are monitored, so now and again, it would appear to a passing police person that the tanker had been abandoned with the engine running. 
On the face of it, it seems that these two laws conflict with each other
It seems to be common sense that a test candidate should be allowed to leave the engine running whilst checking the final position of the vehicle, then using the fact that they’ve switched off the engine to indicate to the examiner that that part of the test is complete.
Might it be argued that in the case of a cement mixer and gas tanker deliverieng that they are classed as plant and if so reg 107 would not apply as they would not be a motor vehicle - possible get out clause.
Not had any problems at Peterborough with guys leaving the engine running whilst checking if they are in the box - just on odd occasions when they are only 6 inches short they like to reverse a further 2 feet and knock the barrier. No wonder women are confused as to how long 6 inches is! 
At Peterborough you can touch the barrier but not move it apparently - however never had anyone touch it that hasn’t ‘moved it’ according to the examiner.
I always ensure that trainees switch off the engine when doing the trailer uncouple/re-couple exercise though.
I always ensure that trainees switch off the engine when doing the trailer uncouple/re-couple exercise though.
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air lines
Rog said
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air lines
Crikey, I hope the examiner got the sack or had a very good reason for doing that.
[/quote]
dieseldave:
Krankee:
HenceReg 107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set, unless exempted by paragraph (2).
From which, two points immediately spring to mind. A Test Centre is not a road. They invariably have signs warning that it is private property.
Now that’s where I seem to remember that there are two definitions of “road.”
- A road to which the public have access, and
- A road repairable at the public expense.
So that leads me to wonder which definition is in use for the quoted "Reg 107(1)?
I would have thought that a test center would meet both definitions, since it is accessible to the public AND it’s repairable at public expense. If the “private” signs have any legal validity, then who owns it? I also seem to remember that a “private” road should have gates that are closed on at least one day a year, so the teast center might well be able to achieve that.
I can imagine that scenario being put to a test case like the Barrister who went fishing to prove a drink driving conviction was unsafe in Dover Docks, (or did he?)
Probably a similar excercise could be carried out to see if you can exercise ferrets in Oulton test centre
ROG:
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air lines
Why the fudge did he do that then Rog?
Wheel Nut:
I can imagine that scenario being put to a test case like the Barrister who went fishing to prove a drink driving conviction was unsafe in Dover Docks, (or did he?)
Hi Wheel Nut, there always was lots of driver myth about the Dover Docks thing. It’s clearly private for some laws, but for others it’s allegedly part of the A2, so who knows??
I do remember one of my old bosses getting a 12 month drink-drive ban, but I only had his word that he was caught in Dover Docks.
There’s no argument that he got banned, but I really don’t know whether the offence actually took place and/or was discovered in the docks… 
bugcos:
ROG:
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air linesWhy the fudge did he do that then Rog?
I ASSUME to show the trainee that leaving the keys in whilst engaged in other activities could be dangerous
bugcos:
ROG:
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air linesWhy the fudge did he do that then Rog?
I ASSUME to show the trainee that leaving the keys in whilst engaged in other activities could be dangerous
I know I’m a bit green at this LGV thing but heres my take on things as published in “The official DSA guide to Driving Goods Vehicles.”
The Reversing Exercise
“When you are in the bay you may leave the cab once to check where the back of the vehicle is in relation to the barrier. Make sure the vehicle is safe before leaving the cab.”
I would take that to mean: Handbrake on, ign off and take keys with you, as somewhere else in the book this is what you must do every time you leave the cab.
Also under Faults to avoid it says “do not hit the barrier hard”
I quote the blurb on the back cover:
Whether you’re a leaner or experienced LGV driver, or an instructor, this book is packed full of advice that will help you stay safe on the road. This new edition includes a wealth of additional information which will form the basis of the new Driver CPC theory test to be introduced during 2008.
Stressing safety, competence and professionalism it includes essential guidance on:
-The official LGV syllabus and practical test requirements
-Attitude and driving techniques for different vehicles and conditions
-EC and UK legal requirements,working time and tacho regs
-Freight transport organisation
-Different types of load and how to secure them
-Accidents, health and safety issues and handling techniques
-Vehicle security and international travel.
IMO it’s a good read with quite a bit to take in, However not as good as from the horses mouths…thats why I’m pestering you lot. 
If on my practical I fail for switching off ign/touching barrier then I’ll get this flippin book out and ask if examiner has read it, then beat him to death with it 
Rog said
Me too - and removing the keys,especially after seeing a Weedon examiner start the engine when the trainee was on the back of the unit with the air lines
Crikey, I hope the examiner got the sack or had a very good reason for doing that.
[/quote]
Whast on earth was an examiner doing starting a truck up anyway Its certainly not in their job description is it. I would have played hell if that had happened to one of my trainees.
No wonder women are confused as to how long 6 inches is!
No, women are never confused about how SMALL 6 inches is
Abandoned test and walk backs
I’ll add the question to the list
Every examiner you ask has a different take on this.
Some say they are only employed to conduct the test and observe the driving skills not to take over.
Some say they are not insured to drive the vehicle.
Other say they are not allowed to take responsibility
…its not in their job description
…They are no longer in charge when the test has been aborted
…Cannot be bothered■■?
Come in any examiner and tell us the correct answer PLEASE
I sent an e-mail to the DSA with the 7 questions listed earlier in this thread and got a reply
The questions are in black with the replies in blue
-
Are all candidates on non B tests allowed to exit their vehicle when they initially stop in the ‘garage’ to go and take a ‘FREE’ look. once, at where the rear of their vehicle is and to put right with one more reverse move if necessary?
Yes, you can get out to check the position once. The best place to check the position is when the vehicle is nearly in the yellow and black stopping area and then the candidate can adjust the position as necessary. -
If yes to Q1, does the engine have to be switched off and the keys removed?
The test takes place on an area from which will not have other traffic moving about. There is nothing laid down about stopping the engine and removing the key, although this may be the best course of action; provided the vehicle is safely parked with the parking brake applied there would not be a fault. -
Does an ‘EXIT’ signal have to be given at a mini roundabout? (most seem to find that the front wheels reach the exit point about the same time when a signal is being sought !!!)
Mini-roundabouts and LGVs don’t mix very well. The positioning both on approach and through the roundabout will tend to be abnormal and often misunderstood by non LGV drivers.
A LGV will normally dominate a mini-roundabout; correct positioning, speed and observation of other traffic should be the major considerations; provided these are carried out correctly the signal can then be considered. An exit signal to inform other road users should be given where possible, but often because of the size of the vehicle this will sometimes be given so late that it is of little value. -
Does the ‘Scuffing’ or ‘rubbing’ of a kerb where it does not effect any adverse movement of the vehicle warrant a minor or serious on the examiners’ sheet?
A great deal will rely on the speed of the vehicle and where and when this takes place; this is where assessment and perceived inconsistencies comes into place. It is not necessarily the ‘touch’ which is being marked. The position of the vehicle in relation to the kerb is the important factor and poor steering causing a loss of control; even if the vehicle does not touch the kerb can be more serious than a gentle touch. -
What constitutes “pulling out” on a vehicle at a roundabout? I have heard different examiners say that they dont mind if the extreme rear of a vehicle slows an oncoming vehicle down, whereas some do.
This is about taking ‘effective’ observation. The large size and relatively slow acceleration of an LGV can sometimes cause problems to other road users. Provided the correct decision is taken based on the prevailing road and traffic conditions at the time and acted upon in a positive way there shouldn’t be a fault, even if a car then appears on the scene and has to slow.
One of the main problems arises through indecisiveness. The potential LGV driver correctly assesses the approaching traffic, starts to go, slows down or stops and then decides to go and causes the other traffic to slow or stop.
-
Are you ok to touch the barrier on the reverse exercise?
Yes. You can touch the barrier gently which may cause the barrier feet to lift, but you must not dislodge the barrier. -
Abandoned tests on a route where the examiner has to stop the trainee driving. What exactly can an examiner do or not do in such circumstances?
Drive the lorry back? Abandon it and leave the trainee with the keys?
If the test is stopped the procedure is to park the vehicle safely and ask the candidate if they wish to return to the DTC with the examiner. If the candidate elects to stay with the vehicle then they are advised not to move the vehicle. The keys stay with the vehicle in case the examiner cannot contact the instructor on returning to the DTC or the police arrive on the scene and wish to move the vehicle.
Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further
assistance.
Peter Burton
Assistant Chief Driving Examiner
Technical Support Team
Standards & Regulation
0115 901 2537/2539
Thanks for these Rog. this is VERY interesting. If I had still been working full time in the London area I would have been tempted to pring these off and keep a copy about my person
- Does an ‘EXIT’ signal have to be given at a mini roundabout? (most seem to find that the front wheels reach the exit point about the same time when a signal is being sought !!!)
Mini-roundabouts and LGVs don’t mix very well. The positioning both on approach and through the roundabout will tend to be abnormal and often misunderstood by non LGV drivers.
A LGV will normally dominate a mini-roundabout; correct positioning, speed and observation of other traffic should be the major considerations; provided these are carried out correctly the signal can then be considered. An exit signal to inform other road users should be given where possible, but often because of the size of the vehicle this will sometimes be given so late that it is of little value.
It was clearly stated in the test centre that I used regularly that any signal to leave a mini roundabout was an on the spot fail. Stated so adamantly in fact a notice to this effect was pinned up in the waiting room for all to see.
It again beings us back to the vagiaries of each individual examiner and their own personal opinions - which are never as black and white as laid down by the DSA.
- Does the ‘Scuffing’ or ‘rubbing’ of a kerb where it does not effect any adverse movement of the vehicle warrant a minor or serious on the examiners’ sheet?
A great deal will rely on the speed of the vehicle and where and when this takes place; this is where assessment and perceived inconsistencies comes into place. It is not necessarily the ‘touch’ which is being marked. The position of the vehicle in relation to the kerb is the important factor and poor steering causing a loss of control; even if the vehicle does not touch the kerb can be more serious than a gentle touch.
I had one driver who was rounding a left turn in our W&D. Taking it slowly and checking the mirrors as he went. Very quiet country area with no pavement and not a pedestrian in sight.
He cleared the curb by around three inches but was failed.
He queried the fact that it was marked as a serious as he had not touched the kerb.
He was told that being that close to the kerb made the examiner feel uncomfortable and had a ‘woman with a pushchair’ being standing there then the manouvre would have been dangerous.
He then explained that had such a person being standing there then he would have been going half the speed and been a further three feet away but had observed clearly that there was nobody in sight.
But the fail stood and he had to retest.
Things like that are what made me want to give up the whole flaming job before I was hospitalised with stress related deseases.