Who's right? Exceeding driving time due to traffic jams

I had a long trip yesterday. Paisley - Hartlepool - Berwick upon Tweed - Paisley.

Due to the heavy traffic, some diversions and that I am not doing 56 on the single carriage roads I ran out of driving time. To top it all up, the traffic on the M8 was this day particularly havy - it took me 1,5hrs of Driving to go from the Edinburgh By-pass to Rutherglen.

I tried to contact both the company and an agency but it failed, so I continued to drive. I decided to go via Glasgow Southside instead of sitting on the totally solid M8 (estimated 40 minutes from Queenslie to Charing X), hoping that in worst case I will land somewhere near to my house and will be able to stay there overnight. I run out of my time near Rutherglen and I managed to stop in safe place with my total driving time 10h03’.

I finally managed to reach the agency 24h number, and they told me to continue to drive as “I can exceed my driving time due to the unexpected delay” and I refused, telling them that I can exceed my driving time to reach place of safe stop, not to reach depot. And that I already reached safe place to stop and it was even a rusty sign saying “Authorised lorry park”. They told me that they will call me back after checking they make some consultation.

They soon called me back and said that they consulted the traffic manager from the company I worked for at these moment and he said that under these circumnstances it’s legal for me to continue driving to reach depot, as I can’t overnight in this van (and I wasn’t prepared or willing to, but I wanted just to leave it where it was and go home and to pick it up the next morning).

In the past I had similar situation a few times, and it was always solved other way:

• other driver was sent in non-tachographed vehicle (or in the car) to take over the lorry from me
• I was paid for hotel
• I parked up lorry and came home by hith-hiking, and the company gave me lift to pick it up the next day.

But I decided that I can’t argue with the transport manager, as I assumed that as having operator’s licence, his knowledge should be better than mine, and even if not he’s able to check the regulations in the books or over the Internet, which I can’t being in the cab in the middle of the post-apocaliptic looking industrial estate. So I decided to listen to them, and completed my trip to reach the depot, totalling my driving time at 10h36’

I wrote on my tacho printout that “Due to unforeseen delays, I run out of driving time. I stopped when it was safe when run out of time and seeked advice from the agency and employer. Both told me that it’s legal to continue driving under such circumstances, so I continued driving to reach depot” and asked them to sign it for me. They agreed and after further consultations signed it for me with printed name of duty manager.

But I still do not feel to confident that it was legal, that’s why I asked them to confirm my version to have my arse covered in-case-of. My line of defence will be that there were two proffesionals against my opinion and therefore I had to trust them. I hope that will be enaugh to get me out of trouble if-any.

So: was I right to refuse to continue to drive at the first stage, or were they right that I can continue my driving to reach depot?

Other info you might need: The lorry had a bunk, but only because it was hired. It was my first DRIVING shift in about 9 days, so no problem with weekly or forthnightly driving limits.

the way I see it is they couldn’t be arsed coming to get you so fed you some bull [zb] to make you drive. You found somewhere safe to stop yet carried on to save them hassle. Mr Paddy drives 20 hours a day because his boss says so… doesn’t make it all okay

So you went over your tacho time…

You really think you are legal to continue because of delays on the road ? Bunk or no bunk ?

Great idea eh !!! if you ever get stuck in traffic you can still drive the truck to depot.

( Sorry all you truckers no more nights out just blame the traffic )

they lied no suprise there
you had nearly got back
but not conveinant for them the truck was safeish and you could have got home
and took it back in the morning

they made you break the law to save a few bob
reasonably you would have run the truck back for the hours
and not demanded the 8 hours min

if you wernt fussed about the extra work time

Unforeseen events
Provided that road safety is not jeopardised, and to enable a driver to reach a suitable stopping place, a departure from the EU rules may be permitted to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons, the vehicle or its load. Drivers must note all the reasons for doing so on the back of their tachograph record sheets (if using an analogue tachograph) or on a printout or temporary sheet (if using a digital tachograph) at the latest on reaching the suitable stopping place (see relevant sections covering manual entries). Repeated and regular occurrences, however, might indicate to enforcement officers that employers were not in fact scheduling work to enable compliance with the applicable rules.

A judgment by the European Court of Justice dated 9 November 1995 provides a useful guide to how this provision should be interpreted. It can apply only in cases where it unexpectedly becomes impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words, planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules. In doing so, a driver would have to take into account the need to ensure road safety in the process (e.g. when driving a vehicle carrying an abnormal load under the Special Types regulations) and any instruction that may be given by an enforcement officer (e.g. when under police ■■■■■■).

when your on long hauls like this it pays to take mates or bosses digi -card with you just in case

lesson learned: next time try to run out of driving hrs farther from base
if you don’t want to use a trick with tacho cards…

Analogue Tacho,

Wind the clock on 12 hours, fresh chart in and off you go, easy.

Orys, as I type this you have posted on this site 2569 times. I would say that pretty much rules you out of the newbie status and you have in the past posted about bad companies expecting you to run bent and other issues regarding drivers hours.

Is it therefore any wonder some people despair at so call “professional” drivers and their apparent lack of understanding of relevant rules and regulations? Do you honestly not know by now that to wilfully exceed your permitted hours without a ■■■■ good reason is plainly and simply breaking the law?

I’m not painting myself whiter then white because I have in the past posted on my smoking at work, not wearing a seatbelt, speeding etc. But for Gods sake Orys you can’t tell me you didn’t know it was illegal irrespective of what the TO told you. Run in by all means, but don’t complain as you’re handing money over to the courts, or tell them you aint breaking the law, and night out. Simplesk

It appears that,in general,a lot of drivers are paranoid about exceeding their driving time.

I choose to interpret the rules in the spirit in which I believe they were written. The 9/10 hr days are a good thing, and
providing your day has been planned around these rules, delays such as traffic jams/accidents are an accepted hazard.

In saying this,I do not include normal delays such as Dartford during the rush hours.

If a truck has to spend an unplanned night away from base,for instance, it could well have major repercussions on
the following days work…and that could,ultimately,affect your company’s existence.(and yours)
The rules were never intended to have that effect.

Running over time occasionally,and I mean occasionally,for sound and verifyable reasons,is not,I believe,
something I should be worried about.

206doorman:
It appears that,in general,a lot of drivers are paranoid about exceeding their driving time.

And with good reason. If VOSA could fine you for having your shoe laces untied then they would

Not wanting to get into a long protracted argument.
My understanding is that you had exceeded yours and reached a safe parking place. (legal with entry on tacho etc.)
Anything after that would be illegal in my book.
Maybe excepting a situation where you are carrying high value or dangerous goods etc.
I can’t see that the provision of a bunk/sleeper cab is relevant.
Nor can I see that the vehicle being needed back at depot is relevant
If I had been in your position I would have ignored the first place that you stopped and run to the depot, signed the chart and pleaded ignorance to knowing of any safe place previously passed.
Being based in Bradford , if I was travelling North on the M1 , I would consider Wooley Edge service to be the last safe place to park up.
Problems after that would always result in a return to base.

the maoster:
But for Gods sake Orys you can’t tell me you didn’t know it was illegal irrespective of what the TO told you. Run in by all means, but don’t complain as you’re handing money over to the courts, or tell them you aint breaking the law, and night out. Simplesk

See, the problem is that I was expecting it to be illegal, but they say that it’s legal. From the quotes given by ROG is not clear if that exceeding driving time should be done to the first safe place or to finish the journey.

I had a plenty of situation when I slightly exceeded driving time, for example becouse there was no place to park. This is clear for me - as it is physically impossible to park safe, I won’t just stop in the middle of the road. But this seems to be a grey area, if it’s the driver who decides if it is necessary or not.

In my view at the moment it was that it is not necessary, but as they insisted I should drive, I refused until I got another opinion on that matter. I think that was reasonable move.

Then the TO said, that I should keep driving.
From that I can expect that they have bigger knowledge of the overall situation than me, as they can:

• check that with the law
• have some more important informations like “the lorry is needed to do another run overnight” - this might be some reason to be taken into consideration
  or, for instance
• it’s illegal to park lorry on the street when it has registered operation center (I don’t know this laws, but I know that it’s illegal to park my lorry outside my house, and that was, less or more, what I did, as I parked in, I think, the nearest authorised lorry park to my home (it just a coincidence that I live on the way from M74 to that place, if I don’t want to go via EK or M8, I pass the street 100 mtrs from my place)

From that I could expect that there might be some circumstances I am not aware of, which makes that this was necessary.

Last but not least you can interprete ROG’s post in the way that as long as the breach of the rules was not planned, it is OK to drive longer if necessary. 206doorman seems to have similar approach. Therefore: I am still not sure if it was legal or not, but now I am more convienced that it might be legal than I was before.

On the side:
I would be really glad if we could discuss the matter in question without pointing in my experience or non-experience. I think it is not related to the matter in question if I have 3 years, 3 days or 30 years of experience, becouse if it’s legal, it’s legal for all drivers, and if it’s illegal, it’s also illegal for all drivers, no matter how experienced they are. The comments about my proffesionality are also unneccessary - especially from someone, who, as you pointed, is not clear himself. I might be wrong on that, but for example I am not speeding, never had any accidents on my fault, any points, endorsements but still - everyone can make mistake. Maybe in this case my mistake was that I wasn’t assertive enaugh and I trusted them and allowed them to convince me that I was wrong? I don’t know. That’s why this post is here. And if someone will be able to prove me that it was wrong, I will be more than happy, as thanks to that I will learn my lesson. But as for now you can see from the answers that this area can be interpreted in many ways.

The other thing about experience: Yes, I have made some posts here, and I was a full time lorry driver for nearly 3 years and I still do it occasionally. But I think it does not makes me knowing everything, and I can bet that even the most experienced of us here can do some mistakes or be not sure in question they never encountered before (or find out after years that what they were always doing was unnecessary). This is just life. Usually the companies I worked for interpreted the rules the way I was thinking is right, but now I approached different attitude, and reason for me posting this thread is to find if that “new for me” interpretation of law is a step too far, or if simply my up to now experience was just a bit exaggerated.

Last but not least: There is a huge difference between unforeseen (both by me and by company) conditions on the road which makes you run out of time and companies who EXPECT you to do that just for their benefit.

I was doing similar runs for this company before and I had never problems with driving time (altough it was usually about 9.5 hours of driving), and I had to sign on the departure that I can exceed my driving time today, so this is not that the run is planned to exceed my driving time.

del949:
If I had been in your position I would have ignored the first place that you stopped and run to the depot, signed the chart and pleaded ignorance to knowing of any safe place previously passed.

Heh, that’s my point:
Cheating makes life easier. My mistake seems to be in that I stopped and seeked for advice in the field I wasn’t sure of…

EDITED: But: Isn’t it better for me to be able to prove, that I tried to seek advice on the matter that I wasn’t sure of, rather than claim that I don’t know the safe place to stop in, when I was just passing the place where I was working for nearly a year?

I can go a bit further: if I drove 56 at A68 and then A1, slowing only for a speed cameras, there propably would not be a driving time issue at all

Coddy:
Analogue Tacho,

Wind the clock on 12 hours, fresh chart in and off you go, easy.

And that’s when you find yourself at the wrong end of a vosa bust or get involved in an accident and they start asking questions as to why the chart says it’s 6 am at 6 pm in the evening

del949:
I can’t see that the provision of a bunk/sleeper cab is relevant.

OK if a B&B or similar is available…

Where a daily rest is taken, this may be taken in a vehicle, provided that it has suitable sleeping facilities and is stationary

.

orys:

del949:
If I had been in your position I would have ignored the first place that you stopped and run to the depot, signed the chart and pleaded ignorance to knowing of any safe place previously passed.

Heh, that’s my point:
Cheating makes life easier. My mistake seems to be in that I stopped and seeked for advice in the field I wasn’t sure of…

I can go a bit further: if I drove 56 at A68 and then A1, slowing only for a speed cameras, there propably would not be a driving time issue at all

orys in the days before limiters we always used speed to keep the hours right but that’s when it was worth using the motorways.

the maoster:
I’m not painting myself whiter then white because I have in the past posted on my smoking at work, not wearing a seatbelt, speeding etc. But for Gods sake Orys you can’t tell me you didn’t know it was illegal irrespective of what the TO told you. Run in by all means, but don’t complain as you’re handing money over to the courts, or tell them you aint breaking the law, and night out. Simplesk

And at the time of writing this you’ve posted 570 times

It has ALWAYS been permitted to exceed the driving hours in cases of unforeseen circumstances but they also went on to say “with a reasonable time” which was never defined as 10 minutes or 1 hr

If this was not permitted you would have Loads of trucks parked up on a Motorway Hard Shoulder after having been held up in a nasty accident and the letter of the law being adhered to i.e 13hrs or 15 hrs max.

Is it any wonder the industry is in the state it’s in when some drivers think thats it I’ve sat in a queue of traffic for 2 hrs and its eaten my driving time up?

If the circumstances are UNFORESEEN then it’s simply needs to be written on the chart withy the Time & place where the Vosa officers can check to see if it’s a genuine excuse if need be.

I Dont know how many times I Exceeded the max driving time by 10 mins to 30 mins over a 6 year period to get home on a friday night after being held up in traffic accidents etc on the M1 and Vosa never queried any of them when checking tachos.

It is permitted Within Reason, but no authourity would stipulate the maximum time limit that was reasonable

Carryfast:

Coddy:
Analogue Tacho,

Wind the clock on 12 hours, fresh chart in and off you go, easy.

And that’s when you find yourself at the wrong end of a vosa bust or get involved in an accident and they start asking questions as to why the chart says it’s 6 am at 6 pm in the evening

Thats the chance you take aint it…

OK if a B&B or similar is available…
Where a daily rest is taken, this may be taken in a vehicle, provided that it has suitable sleeping facilities and is stationary.

Rog, aware of that but I don’t think it has anything to do with Ory’s employer claiming that he could run in over hours because he couldn’t overnight in the van.
Not aware of any rule that gives you the authority to over run in order to get to a bed because you haven’t got one with you.
I always understood that you should find your digs (if needed) during your normal time).