Hi,
I was wondering if any of you can answer a question I have regarding the working time directive:
The thing is I am in disagreement with people over the rules and we need this clearing up (as I wish to be cough professionally compliant).
So, the question is :
according to the working time directive I must take a minimum of 15 minutes of break within the first 6 hours of “DUTY” or “WORKING TIME”.
I currently lodge with a transport manager who is very good with the laws, however we cannot agree on this question,.
He thinks that the break is within 6 hours of work time whereas I think the break must be taken within the first 6 hours of duty time, let me explain…
I say if i clock in at 06:00 I must take a 15 minute break by 12:00 regardless of what duties are performed.
He says that if I am on POA for the first 2 hours of my shift (as in waiting for vehicle) the 6 hour period does not apply until my actual working time starts.
So in effect, if I clock in at 06:00 and am on POA until 08:00 waiting for vehicle, then I can work until 14:00 before I need to take a 15 minute break,.
I understand that POA does not count towards working time, but in the information I have sourced from http://www.tenlivegroup.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/TenLiveEUdrivershoursquickguidefordrivers.pdf it states that the break must be taken within the first 6 hours of duty time, not the first 6 hours of working time.
My friend thinks that I can sit on POA for 2 hours then at the start of my run the 6 hour period applies, I think the 6 hour period starts from the time I clock in or actually start my duty.
Any help would be greatly appreciated on this matter
Many thanks
Yep, it’s 6 hours of work which triggers the break for the WTD, work is driving and other work but not POA or break. If you took a 10 minute break during teh first 6 hours duty that wouldn’t be enough for the WTD or driving rules but it would push the point you need a break at forward by 10 minutes.
Even the document you linked to says 6 hours work in the summary section:
Break must be taken after a maximum of 6 hours work.
It possible to do a fairly long shift and not require a break at all thanks to POA. i used to do a double manned night trunk that was 9-10 hours duty time, I would have about 4 and a bit hours driving and at most an hour of other work, the rest was POA while my colleague was driving. I never reached 4.5 hours driving or 6 hours work so never needed to actually record a break.
The info from the tenlive website is quite simply wrong. POA is not working time and your six hour WTD clock is effectively frozen while on POA. If you clock on at 0600 and are on POA (e.g. waiting for a vehicle) until 0800 before actually starting work then no break (for WTD purposes) is required until 1400. Same applies if you started working straight away but then went onto POA for two hours during the morning (e.g. due to arriving early at a booked delivery point).
Strictly speaking, POA seems to be legally equivalent to break. It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
The only distinction seems to be that “break” is intended to connote the wilful interruption of work (which is otherwise available to be performed) for the recuperation of the worker, whereas POA connotes an interruption of the supply of work which forces the worker into an idle state for a defined period of time.
Rjan:
It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
.
Quite clearly you never drive a lorry if you can’t conceive such a situation as they happen to most drivers most days. When you’re in a parking area waiting to be called onto a loading bay is an example. Can’t be legally classed as break as you’re not free to dispose of your time.
Rjan:
It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
.
Quite clearly you never drive a lorry if you can’t conceive such a situation as they happen to most drivers most days. When you’re in a parking area waiting to be called onto a loading bay is an example. Can’t be legally classed as break as you’re not free to dispose of your time.
Rjan:
It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
.
Quite clearly you never drive a lorry if you can’t conceive such a situation as they happen to most drivers most days. When you’re in a parking area waiting to be called onto a loading bay is an example. Can’t be legally classed as break as you’re not free to dispose of your time.
Who wants to be the first ■■?
Regards. John.
Go on then, I will. Climb down off of Neddy the high horse Conor, there is no requirement to be free to dispose of your time to satisfy the requirements for a break. You are confusing that with rest and to be frank I’m both horrified and appalled that a man of your stature does not even know this most basic of requirements. If it helps Conor there are numerous sites available where you can familiarise yourself with current legislation. Hth.
Rjan:
It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
.
Quite clearly you never drive a lorry if you can’t conceive such a situation as they happen to most drivers most days. When you’re in a parking area waiting to be called onto a loading bay is an example. Can’t be legally classed as break as you’re not free to dispose of your time.
But the length of the period of waiting has to be known about in advance for it to be recorded as POA, so for the duration of POA (as opposed to the waiting part which is uncertain and has to be recorded as other work), the employer may well allow you to dispose of your own time.
For example, if you get to a site 2 hours early and they tell you to go away, park up, and re-present yourself 2 hours later, then that time seems equally capable of being recorded as POA or break.
At the very least, I fail to see the practical distinction between POA and break.
Rjan:
At the very least, I fail to see the practical distinction between POA and break.
As the quango who created and implemented the 48 hour limit congratulated themselves on a job well done and toasted themselves with taxpayer funded caviar washed down with Moët & Chandon someone realised with a dawning horror what a 48 hour limit might actually mean in real terms to the haulage business. This dawning realisation resulted in a panicky knee jerk reaction in creating a cop out that previously did not exist; thus POA was proudly presented to its new parents.
Rjan:
It’s difficult to conceive a situation where a person could not simply record POA as break.
.
Quite clearly you never drive a lorry if you can’t conceive such a situation as they happen to most drivers most days. When you’re in a parking area waiting to be called onto a loading bay is an example. Can’t be legally classed as break as you’re not free to dispose of your time.
Rjan:
At the very least, I fail to see the practical distinction between POA and break.
As the quango who created and implemented the 48 hour limit congratulated themselves on a job well done and toasted themselves with taxpayer funded caviar washed down with Moët & Chandon someone realised with a dawning horror what a 48 hour limit might actually mean in real terms to the haulage business. This dawning realisation resulted in a panicky knee jerk reaction in creating a cop out that previously did not exist; thus POA was proudly presented to its new parents.
But break has the same effect. I think it was brought in purely so the odd drivers who get all recorded breaks deducted aren’t penalised
the maoster:
As the quango who created and implemented the 48 hour limit congratulated themselves on a job well done and toasted themselves with taxpayer funded caviar washed down with Moët & Chandon someone realised with a dawning horror what a 48 hour limit might actually mean in real terms to the haulage business. This dawning realisation resulted in a panicky knee jerk reaction in creating a cop out that previously did not exist; thus POA was proudly presented to its new parents.
Rjan:
At the very least, I fail to see the practical distinction between POA and break.
As the quango who created and implemented the 48 hour limit congratulated themselves on a job well done and toasted themselves with taxpayer funded caviar washed down with Moët & Chandon someone realised with a dawning horror what a 48 hour limit might actually mean in real terms to the haulage business. This dawning realisation resulted in a panicky knee jerk reaction in creating a cop out that previously did not exist; thus POA was proudly presented to its new parents.
But break has the same effect. I think it was brought in purely so the odd drivers who get all recorded breaks deducted aren’t penalised
I find this the most plausible explanation, that it’s designed simply so that employers can distinguish the difference between what are essentially two different reasons for a driver spending time doing no work.
As far as the WTD goes, POA (properly used) is equivalent to break.
Maoster’s rubbish about the working time quango is just that. If the POA mode didn’t exist, a driver could simply use the break mode to exactly the same effect.
Rjan:
I find this the most plausible explanation, that it’s designed simply so that employers can distinguish the difference between what are essentially two different reasons for a driver spending time doing no work.
It’s got bugger all to do with this.
As far as the WTD goes, POA (properly used) is equivalent to break.
Maoster’s is spot on the money about the working time quango. If the POA mode didn’t exist, a driver could simply use the break mode to exactly the same effect.
POA was brought thought up purely to pacify the large logistics companies who screamed very loudly when the WTD was introduced. You owe Maoster an apology!
O/p Has this crap REALLY been bothering you since 2014 ?
Let it go, it’s wtd, it does not matter a ■■■■ anyway.
Let us know in 3 yrs time if you’ve got over it.
I don’t ever use POA, it is a very grey area. Much simpler to use break, other work and driving. 3 simple modes and one of them does it automatically. break and other work you can’t go wrong with (unless you put it on break then touch your curtains) which I have witnessed many times.
