Double manning and breaks

Hi,
I have searched the forum, and have found answers but just need a but of clarification (coffee, I know you do double Manning…)

Anyway, I know that the first 45 minutes of POA counts as rest for driver 1 when the 2nd driver takes over. What I was wondering is, can this rest be spilt in the same way it can for single man work. For example-

4.5 hours driving…
15 mins POA…
Some’ other work
30 mins POA

I get that periods of less than 15 minutes aren’t going to count at all, but would it still be legal if I had amounted a total of 45 minutes of POA before it was my turn to drive again, as long as there were 2 periods as down in the example above.

The work I’m doing at the moment involves a 3 or 4 hour drive to start, then a load of deliveries usually not more than 10 to 20minutes apart, followed by the long drive back to base.

Thanks in advance for your advice

matt3903:
Hi,
I have searched the forum, and have found answers but just need a but of clarification (coffee, I know you do double Manning…)

Anyway, I know that the first 45 minutes of POA counts as rest for driver 1 when the 2nd driver takes over. What I was wondering is, can this rest be spilt in the same way it can for single man work. For example-

4.5 hours driving…
15 mins POA…
Some’ other work
30 mins POA

I get that periods of less than 15 minutes aren’t going to count at all, but would it still be legal if I had amounted a total of 45 minutes of POA before it was my turn to drive again, as long as there were 2 periods as down in the example above.

The work I’m doing at the moment involves a 3 or 4 hour drive to start, then a load of deliveries usually not more than 10 to 20minutes apart, followed by the long drive back to base.

Thanks in advance for your advice

I am led to believe this is only a VOSA agreement which allows this to happen and is not in the EC 561/2006 legislation of every country. It would be wise to check before venturing into France or Spain.

Multi-manning — second driver record
Some analogue equipment and all digital tachographs will automatically record all time spent as a second driver when the vehicle is in motion as a period of availability and do not allow the mode to be changed to either ‘break’ or ‘other work’. Provided the second driver is not required to carry out any work during this time, VOSA will accept the first 45 minutes of this time as a break from driving. Any periods of other work, however, must be manually recorded on a printout or chart by the driver.

Don’t assume other enforcement authorities will take the same view as VOSA

From the way this is written it looks like only the first 45 minutes of POA counts as break

Personally I think I’d be getting clarification off VOSA about this and preferably in writing.

The thing is that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst in the passenger seat counting as break is a VOSA thing to allow you to have a break whilst in a moving vehicle without having to do printouts to explain that you were actually on break even though the tachograph recorded POA.

Personally I can’t really think of a single good reason why you should not be allowed to have the breaks split as you want to without having ot do manual entries on printouts all the time.
But VOSA have said they will count the first 45 minutes of POA as break, well if you have 20 minutes POA then a further 25 minutes POA after some other work, some pedantic VOSA bod could interpret that as the first 45 minutes of POA counted as break, even though it couldn’t possibly count as a 45 minute break.

Other people may see this differently, but like I say I’d be trying to get clarification in writing of exactly how much leeway VOSA are prepared to give in a situation like you’ve described.

Just leave the 2nd man mode on POA till at least 45 minutes are up, if you want to be a real stickler for the rules and record every minute of work you dowhen in the 2nd man position, just tell the other driver to unload on his own because youre on break…simples

tachograph:
The thing is that the first 45 minutes of POA whilst in the passenger seat counting as break is a VOSA thing to allow you to have a break whilst in a moving vehicle without having to do printouts to explain that you were actually on break even though the tachograph recorded POA.

Wheel Nut:
I am led to believe this is only a VOSA agreement which allows this to happen and is not in the EC 561/2006 legislation of every country.

Well it doesn’t appear to be in any member state’s law, but it does appear to be noted officially as a practical enforcement guideline:

VOSA:

VOSA - GV262:
On a multi-manning operation the first 45 minutes of a period of availability will be considered to be a break, so long as the co-driver does no work.

EU Commission Driving Time Guidance Notes:

Guidance Note 2:
The third is where a vehicle is manned by more than one driver. When a second crew member is available for driving when necessary, is sitting next to the driver of the vehicle and is not actively involved in assisting the driver driving the vehicle, a period of 45 minutes of that crew member’s ‘period of availability’ [/i]can be regarded as ‘break’."
[/quote]
However, the two quotes above aren’t the same thing as regards to the positioning of the 45 minutes within the POA period (nor in the second case whether a 15/30 would qualify as a “a period of”.
Anyway, going by VOSAs “first 45 of POA”, I interpret that as unsplittable block unless you do printouts/manual entries of a qualifying 15/30 to remove any doubt of the intention. Practically, I’d arrange times to suit Toowise’s suggestion and get a first 45 POA in so you don’t need to split it.
Have you ever tried it to see if would stand up to tacho analysis software?

matt3903:
Hi,
I have searched the forum, and have found answers but just need a but of clarification (coffee, I know you do double Manning…)

Anyway, I know that the first 45 minutes of POA counts as rest for driver 1 when the 2nd driver takes over. What I was wondering is, can this rest be spilt in the same way it can for single man work. For example-

4.5 hours driving…
15 mins POA…
Some’ other work
30 mins POA

That example would attract an infringement.

Article 7
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall
take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes,
unless he takes a rest period.

If you did less than the 4.5 hours driving then I still think it might not be allowed based on the wording of the statement and guidance notes, neither of which are actually regulations. For example.

Driver 1 drives 4 hours 25 minutes.

Swap drivers.

Driver 2 drives 15 minutes, 15 minutes POA assumed to be break for driver 1?

20 minutes other work for both drivers

Driver 2 drives for 30 minutes, 30 minutes POA assumed to be break for driver 1?

30 minutes other work for both drivers.

That would seem legal but the wording in both the guidance notes and the VOSA statement does suggest the period should be a single period of 45 minutes, although neither actually states the 45 minutes have to be uninterrupted.

The VOSA statement does say “a period of availability” and the ‘a’ would indicate a single period rather than two.

The guidance notes say a period of 45 minutes of that crew member’s ‘period of availability’ and both a period of 45 minutes and ‘period of availability’ are singular so suggest one continuous period.

However if it was a tachograph on which you could record break while the vehicle was moving it would surely be legal as no assuming would be required, just the break recorded in two parts as normal, and to remove that option and incur a possible infringement due to the limitations of the equipment does seem unfair.

Call or email VOSA and ask them, email might be better because then you get an answer in writing you can keep if the person you get says you can do it but later you encounter one with an opposing view.

Thanks for your replies guys, just sent an email to vosa to see what they say.

…

You’ll probably get some blurb at the bottom of that email:

“The information in this email does not constitute legal advice nor is it a ruling on the law.” blah, blah, get-out clause, blah, blah, get your own Nick Freeman to argue the point in court should it end up there, blah, blah.

macplaxton:
You’ll probably get some blurb at the bottom of that email:

“The information in this email does not constitute legal advice nor is it a ruling on the law.” blah, blah, get-out clause, blah, blah, get your own Nick Freeman to argue the point in court should it end up there, blah, blah.

I get that frequently, please note this has not been tested in a court of law so it may be a load of old ■■■■■■■■

Well I look forward to their reply, if any! I’ll keep you posted as to what they say…